Paid content in videogames (DLC, loot boxes, passes, currencies, "surprise mechanics" and - new! - pay more or wait!)

jawafour wrote:

Hime wrote:...we also have to be realistic about how companies can afford to support games that have stayed the same price for over 30 years despite the size of teams and development costs drastically inreasing.

Activision made $3.6 billion in DLC income in 2016; up from $1.6 billion in 2015. Sure, development costs of games have increased but, back in the 90s, you paid a fee and that granted you access to all of the entertainment for that game. Now, when you buy a “Triple A” game, the fee is the entry point; content and enhancements are chargeable extras and, increasingly, in the form of a virtual roulette wheel.

With the big publishers literally raking in billions from this form of charge, I do begrudge it when, say, shaders in Destiny 2 are single use. Or character development progress is dependent upon loot boxes as in Star Wars Battlefront II. This situation is going to increase as enough folk - a relatively small proportion of the audience, but paying large sums - are making this an easy, and hugely profitable, income channel for publishers.

But lots of companies are also going out of business. Again, there is no content or enhancements that are required on top of the £40 "entry point".

Don't get me wrong, I get your point about sharers but it's cosmetic shite that doesn't influence the game one iota. There is a big difference in supporting a game (service?) like Destiny to a game released in the 90's?

So why does all this frivolous cosmetic stuff have to come in blind boxes? Why can't we just see thing > buy thing > use thing? Because it makes the publishers more money for everyone to roll the dice over and over to get artificially scarce cosmetics because they've seen someone else with them.

My hope remains that the EU will regulate loot box practices and the whole thing will rebalance. Something like any game with random-chance paid lootboxes receiving an 18 rating would do wonders.

Hime wrote:I can't think of any other business that puts millions of pounds into projects that take a number of years only to pin all hoped on week one sales.

Hollywood spends hundreds of millions per movie and things are deemed a disaster if the opening weekend box office is not decent.

TV shows now spend millions per episode and are cancelled if the overnight viewing figures are not deemed acceptable.

The music industry can spend millions on artists that spend years producing an album, they are deemed a flop if they don’t get big sales in the first week.

I’d imagine the car industry spends millions and waits for years developing new cars and they expect big first week sales.

Cars are actually similar. You buy a car and then get offered a huge range of expensive optional extras (DLC) to go with it. Maybe it’s only a matter of time before Ford decide to offer lootboxes, pay £6 and it will activate a turbo boost. Pay £3 and your tires will last longer. Pay £40 for better fuel economy…

Trelliz wrote:So why does all this frivolous cosmetic stuff have to come in blind boxes? Why can't we just see thing > buy thing > use thing? Because it makes the publishers more money for everyone to roll the dice over and over to get artificially scarce cosmetics because they've seen someone else with them.

But if none of it actually matters, who cares? Why can't kids just buy the football stickers or Pokemon cards they want?

Moggy wrote:

Hime wrote:I can't think of any other business that puts millions of pounds into projects that take a number of years only to pin all hoped on week one sales.

Hollywood spends hundreds of millions per movie and things are deemed a disaster if the opening weekend box office is not decent.

TV shows now spend millions per episode and are cancelled if the overnight viewing figures are not deemed acceptable.

The music industry can spend millions on artists that spend years producing an album, they are deemed a flop if they don’t get big sales in the first week.

I’d imagine the car industry spends millions and waits for years developing new cars and they expect big first week sales.

Cars are actually similar. You buy a car and then get offered a huge range of expensive optional extras (DLC) to go with it. Maybe it’s only a matter of time before Ford decide to offer lootboxes, pay £6 and it will activate a turbo boost. Pay £3 and your tires will last longer. Pay £40 for better fuel economy…

Have things not changed with streaming 86services though? I would have thought the box set binge culture has rejuvenated old shows and brought in additional income years after they were made?

I've never heard that about the motor industry to be honest but similarly I thought that PCP's had increased the number of sales of new cars?

Not saying that gaming should follow either of these models but surely the window of opportunity for success and failure needs to be wider.

Hime wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hime wrote:I can't think of any other business that puts millions of pounds into projects that take a number of years only to pin all hoped on week one sales.

Hollywood spends hundreds of millions per movie and things are deemed a disaster if the opening weekend box office is not decent.

TV shows now spend millions per episode and are cancelled if the overnight viewing figures are not deemed acceptable.

The music industry can spend millions on artists that spend years producing an album, they are deemed a flop if they don’t get big sales in the first week.

I’d imagine the car industry spends millions and waits for years developing new cars and they expect big first week sales.

Cars are actually similar. You buy a car and then get offered a huge range of expensive optional extras (DLC) to go with it. Maybe it’s only a matter of time before Ford decide to offer lootboxes, pay £6 and it will activate a turbo boost. Pay £3 and your tires will last longer. Pay £40 for better fuel economy…

Have things not changed with streaming 86services though? I would have thought the box set binge culture has rejuvenated old shows and brought in additional income years after they were made?

I've never heard that about the motor industry to be honest but similarly I thought that PCP's had increased the number of sales of new cars?

Not saying that gaming should follow either of these models but surely the window of opportunity for success and failure needs to be wider.

Big hits happen in the movie industry even if the opening weekend is poor, but the big blockbuster movie studios love to look at the opening weekend. Sure they are happy if there is a long tail and big demand for DVDs, but they still judge things by the opening weekend box office.

It’s the same with games. They want the big week one sales, but it really shouldn’t matter as long as the game sells a decent amount. Like movie studios though, they are fixated on that immediate demand, rather than looking at building it up over time.

It’s of course different with indie producers (games or films), I’d imagine an indie doesn’t mind too much if there is no immediate huge demand as long as sales are steady over a long period of time.

The upside to all of this is that the backlash will now lead to no loot boxes or a the very least not real money ones in future games.

Again, if they are skins/not pay to win, I don't mind them at all.

Photek wrote:The upside to all of this is that the backlash will now lead to no loot boxes or a the very least not real money ones in future games.

Again, if they are skins/not pay to win, I don't mind them at all.

What backlash?

Is this going to stop people buying the next Fifa, BF or Star Wars? No.

When people start doing that then EA will start panicking.

I don't get why the anger over loot boxes has started now. It's been going on in the Fifa series for nearly a decade and nobody has said for it to be regulated. You buy a pack and you could end up with the worst players possible or a duplicate of what you own. Ultimate team is essentially a pay to win mode.

PES Fan wrote:I don't get why the anger over loot boxes has started now...

I think it’s because we’re reaching a position where loot boxes are becoming far more common in gaming, PES Fan. I agree that, for cosmetic items, it’s not too bothersome - albeit such cosmetics used to be earned through gameplay without the need to buy them as “extras” and, personally, I’d prefer them to just view and purchase the items rather than via randomised loot boxes.

Secondly, I think there is a concern that’s the loot boxes are, basically, gambling; roulette machines that are pay-to-play. The games publishers use loopholes to avoid them being classed as gambling but, hopefully, this will become properly regulated.

Thirdly, we’re just now seeing games use them as pretty important in making progress with the gameplay. By most accounts, Star Wars Battlefront II requires randomised loot boxes to be purchased in order to increase character skills / aid progression. Fifty pound console games are getting the same mechanisms as ”free” titles on mobile platforms.

I agree that gambling regulation for gaming should been brought in years ago, particularly when children are crazy about buying loot boxes in FIFA, but if it is happening now then that has to be a positive step?

PES Fan wrote:

Photek wrote:The upside to all of this is that the backlash will now lead to no loot boxes or a the very least not real money ones in future games.

Again, if they are skins/not pay to win, I don't mind them at all.

What backlash?

Is this going to stop people buying the next Fifa, BF or Star Wars? No.

When people start doing that then EA will start panicking.

I don't get why the anger over loot boxes has started now. It's been going on in the Fifa series for nearly a decade and nobody has said for it to be regulated. You buy a pack and you could end up with the worst players possible or a duplicate of what you own. Ultimate team is essentially a pay to win mode.

The thing about FIFA is that Ultimate Team is just one of the game modes, you can totally ignore it with no detrimental effect on the main game. You play an online shooter where there are pay to win bonuses included and the entire game becomes unfair for those who don't want to cough up. That's where the problem is.

PES Fan wrote:

Photek wrote:The upside to all of this is that the backlash will now lead to no loot boxes or a the very least not real money ones in future games.

Again, if they are skins/not pay to win, I don't mind them at all.

What backlash?

Is this going to stop people buying the next Fifa, BF or Star Wars? No.

When people start doing that then EA will start panicking.

I don't get why the anger over loot boxes has started now. It's been going on in the Fifa series for nearly a decade and nobody has said for it to be regulated. You buy a pack and you could end up with the worst players possible or a duplicate of what you own. Ultimate team is essentially a pay to win mode.

I’ve never bothered with Ultimate team for that reason.

Wait a minute, are sticker albums a form of gambling?

Preezy wrote:Wait a minute, are sticker albums a form of gambling?

Technically yeah, you buy packs not knowing what is in the them in the hope of getting the ones you are missing or rare ones.

This whole thing isn't new it is exactly what happens with pogz, pokemon cards, all trading card games, football stickers etc.

It is annoying but as long as the game isn't "broken" by it I dont think it really matters as obviously the masses are cool with it or it wouldn't happen. Over time it will end and the next thing will come but it isn't really new it is just new in games.

Errkal wrote:

Preezy wrote:Wait a minute, are sticker albums a form of gambling?

Technically yeah, you buy packs not knowing what is in the them in the hope of getting the ones you are missing or rare ones.

I'd argue they're very different

> You're getting something defined and permanent. Even if it's a card you don't want you might be able to trade it (or stick it not in your album, but your diary). There's no sticker collection version of a single use consumable item for instance.

> You can trade it. Lots (not all, not even sure a majority) of loot boxes don't let you. e.g. in BF2 if you get Boba Fetts Star Card (but hate playing as Fett) it's pointless to you. You can trade it with someone who desperately wants it.

> Collecting is the point of the activity. It's not a side activity to enhance/skip content

> You will get 5 stickers. Not "You might get a skin, an emote, a victory pose and XP booster etc

> You don't get "crafting" currency for duplicates etc - something useless unless you have enough (and push to buy more packs so that currency can be spent when you have enough)

> Odds are different. If you and I try to buy the next pack in a physical box - no matter which of use argue over it, we will get the same cards. There's no RNG machine behind it. (And we'll either get a card or a duplicate...no non-sense crafting parts etc. e.g. Boba Fett might be new and uesless/usefull for me, but if you have it you get Crafting Parts)

> Odds are better. Some physical games give much better information on there odds. E.g. a booster box in SW:Destiny will contain 100 packs. If you buy the box (it's stupid money) you know it will contain 2 legendaries. In Loot boxes there's no similar odd info or mass buy...if you want a "legendary" you (normally) have to buy a more expensive box (often only for a chance).

I've not bought Stickers for years but there's not "Basic", "Heroic", "Epic" iterations of them with different prices/odds are there?

Preezy wrote:Wait a minute, are sticker albums a form of gambling?

The technical difference between blind card/sticker/whatever packs and actual gambling is that you're always getting /something/ for your money. Loot boxes in games work on the same technicality.

Psychologically there is little difference, and that is the problem.

Hexx wrote:I've not bought Stickers for years but there's not "Basic", "Heroic", "Epic" iterations of them with different prices/odds are there?

Without wanting to completely derail the thread, I'd say that "shinies" are probably much rarer in sticker packs than regular players. But I don't work for Panini so can't be sure.

Preezy wrote:

Hexx wrote:I've not bought Stickers for years but there's not "Basic", "Heroic", "Epic" iterations of them with different prices/odds are there?

Without wanting to completely derail the thread, I'd say that "shinies" are probably much rarer in sticker packs than regular players. But I don't work for Panini so can't be sure.

Sorry I wan't clear. What I meant was there's nothing like as follows (which you see with some, not all, loot box systems)

Basic Pack £1: 5 Stickers of Players, Small chance of a Shiney
Heroic Pack £2: 5 Stickers of Players (at least one of which is Captain), Increased chance of a Shiney
Epic Pack £5:5 Stickers of Players (at least two of which are Captains), A Guaranteed Shiney

If you wander into the shop there's just one version of "Panini Sticker" packs for sale.

Hexx wrote:

Preezy wrote:

Hexx wrote:I've not bought Stickers for years but there's not "Basic", "Heroic", "Epic" iterations of them with different prices/odds are there?

Without wanting to completely derail the thread, I'd say that "shinies" are probably much rarer in sticker packs than regular players. But I don't work for Panini so can't be sure.

Sorry I wan't clear. What I meant was there's nothing like as follows (which you see with some, not all, loot box systems)

Basic Pack £1: 5 Stickers of Players, Small chance of a Shiney
Heroic Pack £2: 5 Stickers of Players (at least one of which is Captain), Increased chance of a Shiney
Epic Pack £5:5 Stickers of Players (at least two of which are Captains), A Guaranteed Shiney

If you wander into the shop there's just one version of "Panini Sticker" packs for sale.

Oh I see what you mean. Yeah, you're probably right there.

The difference is, you buy a sticker book and you're willingly buying in to that ecosystem. When I spend £40 on a new game, I don't expect to have my progress in said game locked off or protracted by having strawberry floating loot crates or the equivalent in them. I got plants vs zombies garden warfare and stopped playing because of the sticker bullshit. Essential in game items locked behind random drops which of course could be guaranteedby paying real money for them.