Modern quality of life disparity in wealthy countries

Squinty wrote:I've been to Barcelona before and I'm in Copenhagen now. Both have poverty.

Barcelona has people looking through bins near mega yachts. Copenhagen has a large amount of people looking through bins for cans they can cash at the local shops.

The outskirts of Paris are pretty bad too, when i went before the pandemic, there were beggars walking between the vehicles where the A1 motorway meets the ring road and the underpasses were full of tents.

jawa_ wrote:but how can we - as entire countries - let things turn out so badly for others?

Because too many people believe too deeply in this:

jawa_ wrote:I do think there is merit in the idea of taking ownership and improving one's own quality of life...

Pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps is one thing (and also impossible) but to say it to the bootless man is cruel.

This isn't a dig fyi - if you have access to the resources to help yourself then great! But for so many that opportunity just doesn't exist, and too many people don't want to share.

Squinty wrote:

Memento Mori wrote:San Francisco had the most homeless people I've ever seen when I was there like 8 years ago.

Brother was just there. That was one of his main observations.

I've been to Barcelona before and I'm in Copenhagen now. Both have poverty.

Barcelona has people looking through bins near mega yachts. Copenhagen has a large amount of people looking through bins for cans they can cash at the local shops.

America seems to have these problems with widespread drug addiction on top. It's extremely bad.

We saw so many people in Copenhagen going through bins, some people had trolleys full of bottles.

Kezzer wrote:

jawa_ wrote:but how can we - as entire countries - let things turn out so badly for others?

Because too many people believe too deeply in this:

jawa_ wrote:I do think there is merit in the idea of taking ownership and improving one's own quality of life...

Pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps is one thing (and also impossible) but to say it to the bootless man is cruel.

This isn't a dig fyi - if you have access to the resources to help yourself then great! But for so many that opportunity just doesn't exist, and too many people don't want to share.

I can see your point, kezzer, but, just to be clear, I do think that - where possible, of course! - everyone should strive to make their life as good as it can be... however:

or, as I wrote:but

...we shouldn't let others exist in horrific poverty and deprivation.

I suspect that we're agreeing here; something along the lives of "a lot of wealthy people are happy to ignore social issues and say that people should just help themselves".

By "wealthy" people I mean, probably, a heck of a lot of people. Probably most (not all!) people here in GR are relatively "wealthy" in that we have a roof over our heads, we can eat some food tonight and aren't gonna be taking some horrible drug later.

As an example, I now know of that desperate situation in Philadelphia but am I gonna do anything about it? Not much, probably, beyond posting about it here. And that disgusts me. And, yeah, that's the problem that gets hugely increased in scale when the ultra wealthy - and/or councils, states and governments - *could* do something about it but don't.

jimbojango wrote:Aren’t we nearly ready for the Bell riots according to Star Trek?

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Bell_Riots

Time for a Grcade Star Trek DS9 episode re-watch.

Why do just one episode, when you can do all of them...

t:epic-star-trek-re-watch---deep-space-nine---starts-sunday-17th-december?f=7

jawa_ wrote:

Kezzer wrote:

jawa_ wrote:but how can we - as entire countries - let things turn out so badly for others?

Because too many people believe too deeply in this:

jawa_ wrote:I do think there is merit in the idea of taking ownership and improving one's own quality of life...

Pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps is one thing (and also impossible) but to say it to the bootless man is cruel.

This isn't a dig fyi - if you have access to the resources to help yourself then great! But for so many that opportunity just doesn't exist, and too many people don't want to share.

I can see your point, kezzer, but, just to be clear, I do think that - where possible, of course! - everyone should strive to make their life as good as it can be... however:

or, as I wrote:but

...we shouldn't let others exist in horrific poverty and deprivation.

I suspect that we're agreeing here; something along the lives of "a lot of wealthy people are happy to ignore social issues and say that people should just help themselves".

By "wealthy" people I mean, probably, a heck of a lot of people. Probably most (not all!) people here in GR are relatively "wealthy" in that we have a roof over our heads, we can eat some food tonight and aren't gonna be taking some horrible drug later.

As an example, I now know of that desperate situation in Philadelphia but am I gonna do anything about it? Not much, probably, beyond posting about it here. And that disgusts me. And, yeah, that's the problem that gets hugely increased in scale when the ultra wealthy - and/or councils, states and governments - *could* do something about it but don't.

Capitalism as a system requires that there be people who are living in abject poverty. Not everyone can have a job, because unemployment needs to exist as a constant threat and disincentive. Not everyone can have enough to eat, or afford accommodation, or where is the motive for people to continue trading their labour for a wage? The violence meted out by capitalism is not an unfortunate consequence of people not making the most of the system, it's a vital part of the system.

All I see is a system working exactly how it is supposed to.

Knoyleo wrote:

jawa_ wrote:

Kezzer wrote:

jawa_ wrote:but how can we - as entire countries - let things turn out so badly for others?

Because too many people believe too deeply in this:

jawa_ wrote:I do think there is merit in the idea of taking ownership and improving one's own quality of life...

Pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps is one thing (and also impossible) but to say it to the bootless man is cruel.

This isn't a dig fyi - if you have access to the resources to help yourself then great! But for so many that opportunity just doesn't exist, and too many people don't want to share.

I can see your point, kezzer, but, just to be clear, I do think that - where possible, of course! - everyone should strive to make their life as good as it can be... however:

or, as I wrote:but

...we shouldn't let others exist in horrific poverty and deprivation.

I suspect that we're agreeing here; something along the lives of "a lot of wealthy people are happy to ignore social issues and say that people should just help themselves".

By "wealthy" people I mean, probably, a heck of a lot of people. Probably most (not all!) people here in GR are relatively "wealthy" in that we have a roof over our heads, we can eat some food tonight and aren't gonna be taking some horrible drug later.

As an example, I now know of that desperate situation in Philadelphia but am I gonna do anything about it? Not much, probably, beyond posting about it here. And that disgusts me. And, yeah, that's the problem that gets hugely increased in scale when the ultra wealthy - and/or councils, states and governments - *could* do something about it but don't.

Capitalism as a system requires that there be people who are living in abject poverty. Not everyone can have a job, because unemployment needs to exist as a constant threat and disincentive. Not everyone can have enough to eat, or afford accommodation, or where is the motive for people to continue trading their labour for a wage? The violence meted out by capitalism is not an unfortunate consequence of people not making the most of the system, it's a vital part of the system.

Don't forget the requirement that people with enough money need to see people in poverty so that they feel better about themselves and don't get angry about the ultra rich.

I think the reasons are complex and nuanced.

If you have a spare 45 minutes there was an Economist Podcast on Friday which touched on the issue of 'left behind places' and what the Biden administration is doing in regards to some of its new acts.

[spotify]https://open.spotify.com/episode/1QH8jbyemttw47raiOtvCP[/spotify]

Note: The tone of the Podcasts is a bit different from the magazine, so if you don't like the magazine it's still worth having a listen if you're interested.

jimbojango wrote:Aren’t we nearly ready for the Bell riots according to Star Trek?

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Bell_Riots

Time for a Grcade Star Trek DS9 episode re-watch.

Those are next August/September. They happen on my 40th birthday.

poshrule_uk wrote:

Squinty wrote:

Memento Mori wrote:San Francisco had the most homeless people I've ever seen when I was there like 8 years ago.

Brother was just there. That was one of his main observations.

I've been to Barcelona before and I'm in Copenhagen now. Both have poverty.

Barcelona has people looking through bins near mega yachts. Copenhagen has a large amount of people looking through bins for cans they can cash at the local shops.

America seems to have these problems with widespread drug addiction on top. It's extremely bad.

We saw so many people in Copenhagen going through bins, some people had trolleys full of bottles.

Denmark is held up as a great place for people to live. And in many ways, it is, especially for families.

But it still kind of amazes me how many people have fell through the cracks here. It's so common to see can collectors. They are everywhere.