Overwatch

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Karl
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Karl » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:46 pm

Sorry, I edited my reply slightly (you are just so keen aren't you? :toot: ) but I don't think it changes what you would have said so no worries.


Hexx wrote:Yeah ok. If were an ADD suger hi 11 year old running around not caring about winning or losing, doing my own thing with characters I enjoy, not worrying about contribution and singing "Mei so Bae" and writing erotic fanfiction I'd enjoy Overwatch ;)

Basically you are the players I'm whinging about :P

That's a judgement by the way. I am judging you. A lot. :slol: ;)

Call me an ADD 11 year old and judge me for having fun in a videogame all you like, but I'm certainly not one of the players ruining your games -- I'm 1000 SR higher than you so it would never match us. ;) :wub:
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Karl » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:01 pm

By the way, last night I was getting around +60 SR for a win and -20 for a loss. The system works :toot: :toot: :toot: ;)
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Hexx » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:01 pm

Karl wrote:Sorry, I edited my reply slightly (you are just so keen aren't you? :toot: ) but I don't think it changes what you would have said so no worries.


Hexx wrote:Yeah ok. If were an ADD suger hi 11 year old running around not caring about winning or losing, doing my own thing with characters I enjoy, not worrying about contribution and singing "Mei so Bae" and writing erotic fanfiction I'd enjoy Overwatch ;)

Basically you are the players I'm whinging about :P

That's a judgement by the way. I am judging you. A lot. :slol: ;)

Call me an ADD 11 year old and judge me for having fun in a videogame all you like, but I'm certainly not one of the players ruining your games -- I'm 1000 SR higher than you so it would never match us. ;) :wub:


1000SR higher? Wow. Earlier it was just a little higher.

I'm sure by next post it'll by 1500SR higher.

(Although to be fair if I kept playing this game it could be :P)

Karl wrote:By the way, last night I was getting around +60 SR for a win and -20 for a loss. The system works :toot: :toot: :toot: ;)


Wow. I really feel like I shouldn't have to explain to you the difference between "personal experience of a system" and an "objective assessment of a system".

That feeling? It's more judgement btw. And probably a sugar and caffeine crash as the 19 Red Bulls wear off.
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Karl » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:04 pm

At the time I didn't want to brag but now I've decided to pull your pigtails instead. It's because I fancy you.

2300ish SR still isn't very high though. I still consider myself basically a noob. The game starts getting properly 'competitive' at about 2800, so I hear. Never been that high so I don't really know.
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Karl » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:06 pm

Hexx wrote:
Karl wrote:By the way, last night I was getting around +60 SR for a win and -20 for a loss. The system works :toot: :toot: :toot: ;)


Wow. I really feel like I shouldn't have to explain to you the difference between "personal experience of a system" and an "objective assessment of a system".

That feeling? It's more judgement btw. And probably a sugar and caffeine crash as the 19 Red Bulls wear off.


:lol: I'm being anecdotal, and you're not? You just think you're being held back by a dodgy SR system when you actually just suck. Get good noob. ;)
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Hexx » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:09 pm

Karl wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Karl wrote:By the way, last night I was getting around +60 SR for a win and -20 for a loss. The system works :toot: :toot: :toot: ;)


Wow. I really feel like I shouldn't have to explain to you the difference between "personal experience of a system" and an "objective assessment of a system".

That feeling? It's more judgement btw. And probably a sugar and caffeine crash as the 19 Red Bulls wear off.


:lol: I'm being anecdotal, and you're not? You just think you're being held back by a dodgy SR system when you actually just suck. Get good noob. ;)


I explained why I think this system is flawed based on how it mechanically operates.

You responded 'works for me. Git good'

More judgement.

I also found 'Karl and Mei's Glacial Night' in fanfiction.net. Soooo much judgement. :D
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Karl » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:31 pm

At least you didn't find the Karl x Hexx fanfiction, that would have been really awkward. It's pretty romantic for the first chapter but then Moggy gets involved and it all gets a bit kinky. :dread:

No, I did explain why I think SR is okay. :lol: We're going round in circles but I guess this is on-topic and I love it when you try to be dominant (so cute :wub: ) so I'll do it once more for clarity.

Internally you get some base SR for a win or a loss, because the objective of the game is to win and that has to be basic metric on which you are judged. Let's say it's +30 for a win and -30 for a loss. Then the game looks at your team's SR vs. their team's SR, to calculate a probability of you winning. If you beat the odds, you get some extra SR, let's say you're up to +40 for a win or -20 for a loss. Then the game looks at statistics to do with your performance, and if you did a lot of winner-like things you get a bonus (irrespective of whether you won) you get some extra SR, so maybe it's +50 for a win or -10 for a loss. These metrics can all swing the other way, so if you drag your team down causing them to lose against a lower-ranked team, your SR will get hammered (in that scenario it's -30 -10 -10 = -50, right?).

If you deserve to be at a higher rank then on average over a fair number of games you'll win more games than you lose (getting more base SR), and you're more likely to win against higher SR teams (getting that odds bonus when you win, and limiting how much you lose), and you're more likely to overperform for your level (getting a personal bonus when you win, and further limiting how much you lose). So over a couple dozen games (you know, enough for random chances to all even out) your SR will rise.

I don't think this system is necessarily optimal but I think it's sensible enough. If you play frequently and your win rate is below 50% and you consistently lose more SR for a loss than you gain for a win, then you probably deserve to be a low rank by any meaningful definition of the word 'deserve'. Sure, in your head you might be thinking wonderful thoughts about how hard you would win if everyone got on the payload, but that's not translating into you carrying your team to a glorious victory, is it? So why do you deserve to be higher? If you can't drag Bronze teams up then you'd drag those Silver teams down. ;)
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Karl » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:40 pm

The laugh of the last dozen posts is that I don't even like Competitive that much, I'm just offended you're so wrong. :lol: ;)
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Cheeky Devlin » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:14 pm

Logged on last night and immediately got a loot box for participating in Season 1.... It's been a while. :lol:

Also got a legendary skin for Orisa from another loot box. Which is nice, especially when I've no idea who or what she is.

Played a couple of quick games just to get back in the swing of it and remembered how much I loved it. Still going to be maining Reinhard, with Widowmaker and possibly Winston as my "alts". Though I'll be interested to try out Ana, Sombra and Orisa.

Gonna be back on for some more tonight. Might even play some ranked matches so I can be depressed at how gooseberry fool I am.
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Jam-Master Jay » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:20 pm

I seem to be so lucky with legendary skins in these events, just not for the heroes I actually like to play.

I've unboxed McCree's Blackwatch skins 3 times now. :fp:
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Hexx » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:40 pm

Karl wrote:At least you didn't find the Karl x Hexx fanfiction, that would have been really awkward. It's pretty romantic for the first chapter but then Moggy gets involved and it all gets a bit kinky. :dread:

No, I did explain why I think SR is okay. :lol: We're going round in circles but I guess this is on-topic and I love it when you try to be dominant (so cute :wub: ) so I'll do it once more for clarity.

Internally you get some base SR for a win or a loss, because the objective of the game is to win and that has to be basic metric on which you are judged. Let's say it's +30 for a win and -30 for a loss. Then the game looks at your team's SR vs. their team's SR, to calculate a probability of you winning. If you beat the odds, you get some extra SR, let's say you're up to +40 for a win or -20 for a loss. Then the game looks at statistics to do with your performance, and if you did a lot of winner-like things you get a bonus (irrespective of whether you won) you get some extra SR, so maybe it's +50 for a win or -10 for a loss. These metrics can all swing the other way, so if you drag your team down causing them to lose against a lower-ranked team, your SR will get hammered (in that scenario it's -30 -10 -10 = -50, right?).

If you deserve to be at a higher rank then on average over a fair number of games you'll win more games than you lose (getting more base SR), and you're more likely to win against higher SR teams (getting that odds bonus when you win, and limiting how much you lose), and you're more likely to overperform for your level (getting a personal bonus when you win, and further limiting how much you lose). So over a couple dozen games (you know, enough for random chances to all even out) your SR will rise.

I don't think this system is necessarily optimal but I think it's sensible enough. If you play frequently and your win rate is below 50% and you consistently lose more SR for a loss than you gain for a win, then you probably deserve to be a low rank by any meaningful definition of the word 'deserve'. Sure, in your head you might be thinking wonderful thoughts about how hard you would win if everyone got on the payload, but that's not translating into you carrying your team to a glorious victory, is it? So why do you deserve to be higher? If you can't drag Bronze teams up then you'd drag those Silver teams down. ;)


But you've fundamentally altered the discussion to a players sense of self worth maybe not matching reality.

It's not about ranking or how "good" you are (I'm terrible. I'm terrible at lots of games but I can still have a great time playing as trounced) - it's about being an enjoyable experience.

The point is - it's not a fun game to play* lots of the time (Most of the time). In fact it's a game that actively puts up barriers to being fun.

They built an objective based shooter, with highly designed roles - who's "enjoyment" of most of those roles (and I'd argue for most people) comes from contributing to meeting the objective because that's how they've been designed - that often isn't possible if you have an uncooperative team.

If when queuing you're basically pulling a slot machine - 'Will I get a bad team and have a near certain terrible time' or 'Will I get a good team and maybe enjoy it' - that is a bad game design.

"Apprehensive" is not a good state of mind to entering a game in - but that's what you end up doing at low/mid level Overwatch.

The SR/Rating/PotG Loses are secondary bad design as they just make the bad outcome more likely to be maintained since it does nothing to highlight, incentivise or reward "good Overwatch gameplay".

That's why we're a year in and people still don't know to PLAY THE strawberry floating OBJECTIVE.

They made a game which fun, and "progression" if you care about it, is largely determined by the lowest common denominator on an RNG roll. That's bad/terrible design IMO

(*If you actually try to play "Overwatch". if you just run around like a headless chicken shooting people as per any shooter people might find it "fun")
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Karl » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:09 pm

It's fine that you don't like playing Overwatch without team play. That's perfectly reasonable, it's a team based shooter. Working as a team is part of the appeal of the game for a lot of people, so if you aren't getting that experience I can see why you are frustrated and don't like it.

All I'm saying is that I think it's very difficult to design a game that revolves around teamwork as much as Overwatch does, and not have that teamwork element fall apart at the very lowest levels.

For what it's worth I totally 100% agree they could improve the feedback and reinforcement given to train players to play 'properly', I just don't think they've done a bad job now. Most of the metrics presented to the user (SR, medals, experience, fire, cards...) do fundamentally encourage doing 'win-y' things, at least on average, though what 'to win' means does somewhat depend on your level of aptitude (what wins Bronze games isn't necessarily what wins Platinum games).

One thing I would like is a more comprehensive in-game communication wheel. "Attack the objective" is all well and good as a voice command, but what about "Fall back" or "Everyone reset at our spawn" or "Get behind me" or "Let's combine our ultimates" or "3, 2, 1, go" or "Enemy [behind|above|left|right]" or "Focus fire on [healer|tank]"? Blizzard's argument is you should be on mic saying stuff like that, but I could definitely get behind more in-game options, 'cause not everyone feels comfortable squawking down a mic at internet strangers.
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Hexx » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:12 pm

Karl wrote:very lowest levels


Low blow Karl. Low blow :(

For what it's worth I totally 100% agree they could improve the feedback and reinforcement given to train players to play 'properly', I just don't think they've done a bad job now.


You're so going to be a middle manger when you grow up.
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Karl » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:37 pm

:lol: It wasn't intended to be snide. :wub:

TF2 was a shitfest for beginners too. I played TF2 a lot and over the years I put in, I climbed in skill from being the equivalent of a solo-queue Bronze newbie, to eventually being part of a super nerdy organised clan who peaked at probably the equivalent of Grandmaster (before all the friendships imploded due to teenage internet drama :lol: ), and I took it far more seriously than I take Overwatch (I'm not proud of that: so much time wasted on being angry at a videogame :fp: ). God, with that game I would get so pissed off when teammates didn't do the things they 'should' in my head! So I know how you feel. It was bad when playing with newbies but I would even feel like that when I was playing at a Master level or whatever.

Of the two, 'getting good' at TF2 was probably a more satisfying hobby to pour hours into despite the anger, but can't-stop-won't-stop Lucio booping certainly makes me a happier person. :mrgreen: :toot:
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Fade » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:26 pm

Hexx, with all due respect:

U mad

Other people are going to be in the exact same situation as you, sometimes they have good games, sometimes they have bad ones.
Sometimes your team wins the game for you, sometimes you win the game for your team.

The ranking system does work if you play A LOT of matches. But I can see why it might be annoying if you don't play much, I feel the same way.
I'm in platinum and still get players doing dumb gooseberry fool, but I also make a lot of mistakes that I can easily pinpoint as reasons why I'm not say, Masters.

Also the game doesn't just rank you on win/loss it also takes in the account the skill level of every other person in the game, and your personal performance.

Best advice I have heard: Focus on the things you can change, you can't change who is on your team, just play to the best of your ability and find things YOU can improve
instead of just blaming bad team mates (even if they are bad) as blaming them just shifts the focus off of your own self improvement.

If you feel like uploading some gameplay somewhen I'd gladly give you a few pointers =)
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Zartan » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:11 am

Jam-Master Jay wrote:I seem to be so lucky with legendary skins in these events, just not for the heroes I actually like to play.

I've unboxed McCree's Blackwatch skins 3 times now. :fp:


Just got my 3rd McCree too :fp: End of the event tomorrow gotta decide what to buy with all the coins!

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Probably Widowmaker skin and the Phara and Soldier Emotes
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Lagamorph » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:40 am

I think the only event skin I've unlocked is Reinhardt.
Then again I've only gotten 3 or 4 lootboxes since leveling is so slow.
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Cheeky Devlin » Mon May 01, 2017 12:36 am

I've had one uprising box and got the Null Sector skin for Orisa. Which is nice cos I never get decent stuff. Now if only I played her.
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Gently-Parted Ringpiece » Mon May 01, 2017 10:52 am

I got all the legendary skins apart from the one I wanted, Mercy, so I had to buy that with coins, got both the epic ones. Shitload of other gooseberry fool I dont care about.
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PostRe: Overwatch
by Floex » Mon May 01, 2017 1:35 pm

3 greys and a blue.

Every. Single. Damn. Time.

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