Star Trek: Picard. Paramount+ and Prime Video. Series Finale out now.

Hexx wrote:

Shaw

It's a good season, far better than the previous two, and I'm enjoying it (so don't shout at me )... but I really wish they wouldn't do "are we the real monsters? isn't space traumatic?" every single time there's a new Star Trek story.

I finally got around to watching some Strange New Worlds and I'm enjoying it a lot, in part because it seems to be a return to the Federation being the good guys and Starfleet being staffed by likeable, competent people. When was the last time that was unambiguously true? Was it actually TNG?

site23 wrote:I finally got around to watching some Strange New Worlds and I'm enjoying it a lot, in part because it seems to be a return to the Federation being the good guys and Starfleet being staffed by likeable, competent people. When was the last time that was unambiguously true? Was it actually TNG?

I don't think it was ever actually true. TNG is the closest it got to that, but even then there were plenty of bad decisions and corrupt/evil Starfleet personnel.

I think early Star Trek has a very strong overarching theme of being able to overcome difficult situations through adhering to "Federation values" like empathy, teamwork, honesty, and so on. It was explicitly conceived as utopian science fiction, and there's a big difference between Starfleet being fallible and its personnel sometimes making mistakes, and Starfleet being systemically evil and its personnel being as a rule cruel, or selfish and negligent. I think most modern Star Trek (hopefully Strange New Worlds is an exception!) has been written by people who fundamentally think the idea of a utopian future is silly -- which is a perfectly fine perspective to write from, I really like The Expanse too, but I also like utopian sci-fi so for me personally it's been a little bit disappointing over the years.

site23 wrote:I think early Star Trek has a very strong overarching theme of being able to overcome difficult situations through adhering to "Federation values" like empathy, teamwork, honesty, and so on. It was explicitly conceived as utopian science fiction, and there's a big difference between Starfleet being fallible and its personnel sometimes making mistakes, and Starfleet being systemically evil and its personnel being as a rule cruel, or selfish and negligent. I think most modern Star Trek (hopefully Strange New Worlds is an exception!) has been written by people who fundamentally think the idea of a utopian future is silly -- which is a perfectly fine perspective to write from, I really like The Expanse too, but I also like utopian sci-fi so for me personally it's been a little bit disappointing over the years.

It's because of the era, but there are plenty of times in the Kirk era where the utopia really isn't followed.

TNG is much better in that regard, but there are still lots of examples of Starfleet being shitty (better than us, but still shitty!). The way the Federation treats Data, the way they treat the Maquis, the racist (speciesism?) of some of the admirals, the twat admiral (who Riker worked for) who was secretly developing cloaking tech. Troi getting sexually assaulted almost every other episode (with nobody particularly caring). Etc.

It's certainly not the grimdark dystopia of so much modern sci-fi and TNG is mostly positive. But watching it with modern eyes (I never saw it until recently), there's plenty of horrible stuff there.

Trek handles the Federation a lot like Gundam handled the Earth Federation in the Gundam series from the late 70s and early 80s onwards. There's a hell of a lot of parallels. Both federations start off as a force for good, both fight enemies that are clearly in the wrong (Zeon and the Klingons) where one side of the war are clearly the bad guys then as time goes on in their respective series the organisations get slowly but surely more corrupted by power mainly the people at the very top.

This happens in Gundam pretty much immediately after the first war and first series with them setting up a task force, somewhat like Section 31 who is primarily there to hunt down remenants of the old Zeon army who still refuse to surrender and that leads them to killing hundreds of thousands with bio weapons in the end. It's just a slow descent from there with things getting more and more corrupt and leads to their downfall and loss in a later war. If anything the Federation in Star Trek may have done some shitty things but they've not fallen quite as far yet even with the stuff they did during the Dominion war lol

Moggy wrote:

site23 wrote:I think early Star Trek has a very strong overarching theme of being able to overcome difficult situations through adhering to "Federation values" like empathy, teamwork, honesty, and so on. It was explicitly conceived as utopian science fiction, and there's a big difference between Starfleet being fallible and its personnel sometimes making mistakes, and Starfleet being systemically evil and its personnel being as a rule cruel, or selfish and negligent. I think most modern Star Trek (hopefully Strange New Worlds is an exception!) has been written by people who fundamentally think the idea of a utopian future is silly -- which is a perfectly fine perspective to write from, I really like The Expanse too, but I also like utopian sci-fi so for me personally it's been a little bit disappointing over the years.

It's because of the era, but there are plenty of times in the Kirk era where the utopia really isn't followed.

TNG is much better in that regard, but there are still lots of examples of Starfleet being shitty (better than us, but still shitty!). The way the Federation treats Data, the way they treat the Maquis, the racist (speciesism?) of some of the admirals, the twat admiral (who Riker worked for) who was secretly developing cloaking tech. Troi getting sexually assaulted almost every other episode (with nobody particularly caring). Etc.

It's certainly not the grimdark dystopia of so much modern sci-fi and TNG is mostly positive. But watching it with modern eyes (I never saw it until recently), there's plenty of horrible stuff there.

But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.

@Moggy: Yeah, I agree that a lot of the early stuff - including TNG - is of its era. For me, I can separate the intended themes of its worldbuilding from some of the ways it's aged badly as our sensibilities have changed -- but I appreciate your impression of it might be different, especially as someone who first saw it more recently.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that, in this season, when "team genocide virus" presumably stop the "escaped from secret Nazi war crime laboratory" changeling freedom fighters, I'm probably not going to feel great about humanity's future prospects. That's obviously a feeling they're creating on purpose, and I'm not saying it's "bad" necessarily, just that it's pretty bleak compared to how I'd personally put together a Star Trek story...!

@Qikz: Yes, you're definitely right that there seems to be an intended arc to the Federation having a Kirk/Picard golden era and then "losing its way" afterwards. I just like the golden era more... I already live in a horrible dystopia!

I should reiterate that I am actually enjoying this season overall, though. It's just a bit of a nitpick really, something I found a little disappointing on a personal level maybe. I don't think it's a bad piece of TV at all.

Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.

The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.

It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.

Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.

Can someone tell me if I'm crazy. In 3x06 at the end there's shots of Titan sweeping over Dystrom with Shaw's voice over giving bridge commands (Evade them, or something).

That's the first time in Trek, other than Logs, we've had voice over/bridge dialogue on VFX shots right? I can't recall it before.

Moggy wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.

The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.

It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.

Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.

I actually rewatched TNG quite recently. I see where you're coming from, but to me it feels like things have been pushed a lot further in the new Trek stuff.

Lex-Man wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.

The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.

It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.

Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.

I actually rewatched TNG quite recently. I see where you're coming from, but to me it feels like things have been pushed a lot further in the new Trek stuff.

Oh I definitely agree there! It started in DS9 which was much much darker and introduced the Section 31 arseholes.

It's interesting the difference in perception of TNG from people who watched it when it originally aired and people like me who only saw it decades later. I can see why in the '90s it looked like a utopia, but with '20s eyes, there's plenty of nasty stuff there.

Moggy wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.

The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.

It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.

Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.

I actually rewatched TNG quite recently. I see where you're coming from, but to me it feels like things have been pushed a lot further in the new Trek stuff.

Oh I definitely agree there! It started in DS9 which was much much darker and introduced the Section 31 arseholes.

It's interesting the difference in perception of TNG from people who watched it when it originally aired and people like me who only saw it decades later. I can see why in the '90s it looked like a utopia, but with '20s eyes, there's plenty of nasty stuff there.

Yeah, the later TNG films as well were a bit darker than the show. Like Picard in First Contact is totally different from the show version. Even though I love that film.

I don't watch the show but never miss red letter media's coverage of it.

Moggy wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.

The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.

It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.

Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.

I actually rewatched TNG quite recently. I see where you're coming from, but to me it feels like things have been pushed a lot further in the new Trek stuff.

Oh I definitely agree there! It started in DS9 which was much much darker and introduced the Section 31 arseholes.

It's interesting the difference in perception of TNG from people who watched it when it originally aired and people like me who only saw it decades later. I can see why in the '90s it looked like a utopia, but with '20s eyes, there's plenty of nasty stuff there.

It's realistically the same as the Republic in Star Wars, if you're in the core planets or mid rim planets it pretty much is a utopia, but the further out of the federations main reach you get the more screwy it becomes. People on earth in Star Trek absolutely have it made for the most part.

Qikz wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.

The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.

It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.

Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.

I actually rewatched TNG quite recently. I see where you're coming from, but to me it feels like things have been pushed a lot further in the new Trek stuff.

Oh I definitely agree there! It started in DS9 which was much much darker and introduced the Section 31 arseholes.

It's interesting the difference in perception of TNG from people who watched it when it originally aired and people like me who only saw it decades later. I can see why in the '90s it looked like a utopia, but with '20s eyes, there's plenty of nasty stuff there.

It's realistically the same as the Republic in Star Wars, if you're in the core planets or mid rim planets it pretty much is a utopia, but the further out of the federations main reach you get the more screwy it becomes. People on earth in Star Trek absolutely have it made for the most part.

Except for when gooseberry fool like this happens.

Godzilla wrote:I don't watch the show but never miss red letter media's coverage of it.

I pretty much watched Sessom 1 & 2 so I could watch that and get the context.

Lex-Man wrote:

Godzilla wrote:I don't watch the show but never miss red letter media's coverage of it.

I pretty much watched Sessom 1 & 2 so I could watch that and get the context.

Yeah me too. Wouldn't have finished those two seasons if RLM weren't covering it.