Re: Star Trek: Picard. Final Season Fridays on Paramount+ and Prime Video.
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:37 am
Hexx wrote:
Shaw
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Hexx wrote:
site23 wrote:I finally got around to watching some Strange New Worlds and I'm enjoying it a lot, in part because it seems to be a return to the Federation being the good guys and Starfleet being staffed by likeable, competent people. When was the last time that was unambiguously true? Was it actually TNG?
site23 wrote:I think early Star Trek has a very strong overarching theme of being able to overcome difficult situations through adhering to "Federation values" like empathy, teamwork, honesty, and so on. It was explicitly conceived as utopian science fiction, and there's a big difference between Starfleet being fallible and its personnel sometimes making mistakes, and Starfleet being systemically evil and its personnel being as a rule cruel, or selfish and negligent. I think most modern Star Trek (hopefully Strange New Worlds is an exception!) has been written by people who fundamentally think the idea of a utopian future is silly -- which is a perfectly fine perspective to write from, I really like The Expanse too, but I also like utopian sci-fi so for me personally it's been a little bit disappointing over the years.
Moggy wrote:site23 wrote:I think early Star Trek has a very strong overarching theme of being able to overcome difficult situations through adhering to "Federation values" like empathy, teamwork, honesty, and so on. It was explicitly conceived as utopian science fiction, and there's a big difference between Starfleet being fallible and its personnel sometimes making mistakes, and Starfleet being systemically evil and its personnel being as a rule cruel, or selfish and negligent. I think most modern Star Trek (hopefully Strange New Worlds is an exception!) has been written by people who fundamentally think the idea of a utopian future is silly -- which is a perfectly fine perspective to write from, I really like The Expanse too, but I also like utopian sci-fi so for me personally it's been a little bit disappointing over the years.
It's because of the era, but there are plenty of times in the Kirk era where the utopia really isn't followed.
TNG is much better in that regard, but there are still lots of examples of Starfleet being shitty (better than us, but still shitty!). The way the Federation treats Data, the way they treat the Maquis, the racist (speciesism?) of some of the admirals, the twat admiral (who Riker worked for) who was secretly developing cloaking tech. Troi getting sexually assaulted almost every other episode (with nobody particularly caring). Etc.
It's certainly not the grimdark dystopia of so much modern sci-fi and TNG is mostly positive. But watching it with modern eyes (I never saw it until recently), there's plenty of horrible stuff there.
Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.
Moggy wrote:Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.
The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.
It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.
Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.
Lex-Man wrote:Moggy wrote:Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.
The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.
It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.
Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.
I actually rewatched TNG quite recently. I see where you're coming from, but to me it feels like things have been pushed a lot further in the new Trek stuff.
Moggy wrote:Lex-Man wrote:Moggy wrote:Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.
The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.
It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.
Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.
I actually rewatched TNG quite recently. I see where you're coming from, but to me it feels like things have been pushed a lot further in the new Trek stuff.
Oh I definitely agree there! It started in DS9 which was much much darker and introduced the Section 31 arseholes.
It's interesting the difference in perception of TNG from people who watched it when it originally aired and people like me who only saw it decades later. I can see why in the '90s it looked like a utopia, but with '20s eyes, there's plenty of nasty stuff there.
Moggy wrote:Lex-Man wrote:Moggy wrote:Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.
The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.
It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.
Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.
I actually rewatched TNG quite recently. I see where you're coming from, but to me it feels like things have been pushed a lot further in the new Trek stuff.
Oh I definitely agree there! It started in DS9 which was much much darker and introduced the Section 31 arseholes.
It's interesting the difference in perception of TNG from people who watched it when it originally aired and people like me who only saw it decades later. I can see why in the '90s it looked like a utopia, but with '20s eyes, there's plenty of nasty stuff there.
Qikz wrote:Moggy wrote:Lex-Man wrote:Moggy wrote:Lex-Man wrote:
But those incidents feel more like bad actors rather than a problem with the whole of the federation. Like it's clear the shitty admiral is going to get prosecuted. It feels more like a much worse organisation that it was even in DS9 or the later TNG films.
The original point was Starfleet/Federation being unambiguously good and staffed by likeable and competent people.
It probably seemed that way if you first watched it in the late 80s/early 90s. But watching it now, there is a lot of dodgy stuff there and plenty of bad/incompetent people.
Another example, if it wasn't for Picard disobeying Starfleet, they would have committed genocide against the Borg.
I actually rewatched TNG quite recently. I see where you're coming from, but to me it feels like things have been pushed a lot further in the new Trek stuff.
Oh I definitely agree there! It started in DS9 which was much much darker and introduced the Section 31 arseholes.
It's interesting the difference in perception of TNG from people who watched it when it originally aired and people like me who only saw it decades later. I can see why in the '90s it looked like a utopia, but with '20s eyes, there's plenty of nasty stuff there.
It's realistically the same as the Republic in Star Wars, if you're in the core planets or mid rim planets it pretty much is a utopia, but the further out of the federations main reach you get the more screwy it becomes. People on earth in Star Trek absolutely have it made for the most part.
Godzilla wrote:I don't watch the show but never miss red letter media's coverage of it.
Lex-Man wrote:Godzilla wrote:I don't watch the show but never miss red letter media's coverage of it.
I pretty much watched Sessom 1 & 2 so I could watch that and get the context.