Politics Thread 5

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Sleighamorph
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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Sleighamorph » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:59 am

Isn't it the only tactic that has actually worked against criminals on bikes/mopeds though? What else are the police supposed to do? Just watch as the bikes go off down an alleyway that a car can't?

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by captain red dog » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:01 am

I actually agree with her. It's fine to be the Daily Mail 'clobber the bad guys' crowd, until a policeman runs over a 14 year old and kills him or her, or bystanders get injured. Police should always use reasonable and appropriate force and I'd argue smashing into a thief on a mo-ped in a police cruiser is massively excessive.

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Partridge Iciclebubbles
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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:05 am

Lagamorph wrote:Isn't it the only tactic that has actually worked against criminals on bikes/mopeds though? What else are the police supposed to do? Just watch as the bikes go off down an alleyway that a car can't?


Laga's gammon levels are rising....

I am not against the tactic itself as long as it is used proportionally and as safely as possible. I was mocking the instant “OMG DIANE ABBOTT IS AN IDIOT!!” reaction when she says she doesn’t agree with it.

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by KK » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:06 am

It’s working incredibly well and in the space of a year has reduced moped crime dramatically. We are talking moped crimes that also include the use of acid. I’m glad public support of it is so high.

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Preezy
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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Preezy » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:09 am

captain red dog wrote:I actually agree with her. It's fine to be the Daily Mail 'clobber the bad guys' crowd, until a policeman runs over a 14 year old and kills him or her, or bystanders get injured. Police should always use reasonable and appropriate force and I'd argue smashing into a thief on a mo-ped in a police cruiser is massively excessive.

If you did any research into this at all you'd know that they don't smash into mopeds at all, they nudge the rear of the moped in the same way as a car would use the PIT maneuver against another car. It simply makes the moped wobble and become unstable, so the driver (normally wearing a helmet to hide their face) falls off. Never done at high speed, always done as a last resort.

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Rocsteady » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:05 pm

Preezy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:I actually agree with her. It's fine to be the Daily Mail 'clobber the bad guys' crowd, until a policeman runs over a 14 year old and kills him or her, or bystanders get injured. Police should always use reasonable and appropriate force and I'd argue smashing into a thief on a mo-ped in a police cruiser is massively excessive.

If you did any research into this at all you'd know that they don't smash into mopeds at all, they nudge the rear of the moped in the same way as a car would use the PIT maneuver against another car. It simply makes the moped wobble and become unstable, so the driver (normally wearing a helmet to hide their face) falls off. Never done at high speed, always done as a last resort.

Yeah, it's an effective and proportionate tactic.

For such a senior politician, Abbott really isn't great. Putting it very mildly.

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by KK » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:09 pm

People of African descent face 'dire picture' of racism in EU

Almost a third of people of African descent polled in a new EU survey say they have experienced racial harassment in the last five years, a report that claims racial discrimination is “commonplace” across 12 European countries reveals.

People of African descent face “a dire picture” of discrimination in housing, the workplace and everyday life, the survey of 5,803 people by the European Union’s fundamental rights agency states.

Perceived racial harassment, such as offensive gestures, comments or threats, was highest in Finland (63%) and Luxembourg (52%) and least prevalent in the UK (21%) and Malta (20%).

One in 20 respondents said they had been a victim of a physical attack in the last five years, ranging from 14% in Finland to 2% in Portugal. The figure was 3% for the UK.

“The survey paints a dire picture of the reality on the ground,” said the agency’s director, Michael O’Flaherty, in a preface to the report. Referring to the EU’s 2000 racial equality directive, he said: “Almost 20 years after adoption of EU laws forbidding discrimination, people of African descent face widespread and entrenched prejudice and exclusion.”

O’Flaherty wrote that: “Racial discrimination and harassment are commonplace,” adding that discriminatory profiling by the police is “a common reality”.

Most people who took the survey were first and second-generation immigrants, who come from, or have at least one parent from a sub-Saharan African country. The study also includes people from British and French overseas territories, including the Caribbean.

It does not, however, include black Europeans whose families have been settled in Europe for three or more generations, because most EU countries do not collect such data – a gap the agency is urging governments to remedy.

The report will be launched in the European parliament on Wednesday at an event hosted by the Italian politician Cécile Kyenge, one of only three black MEPs in the 751-strong assembly. The MEP has argued that the EU has a gap in its equality strategy and has drafted a non-binding resolution to promote equality for an estimated 15 million people of African descent in the EU. Her text will be voted on next week.

Of the 17 MEPs of an ethnic minority background, eight are from the U.K. Beyond the elected officials, the U.K. employs many of the assistants and advisers from minority backgrounds in the Parliament.

“After Brexit, in terms of fighting racism and discrimination, the EU is going to be worse off,” Alfiaz Vaiya, the coordinator of the Parliament’s anti-racism and diversity intergroup, said. “It’s losing a fundamental member state that, whether under Labour or Conservative governments, has advocated for anti-discrimination policy.”

The latest survey lays bare the extent of the task. One in 10 respondents said that racial discrimination had stopped them from renting an apartment or house, with a wide variation between countries: 37% reported this experience in Italy and 28% in Luxembourg, compared with 3% in the UK.

More charts and figures at: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... cism-in-eu

YouGov:

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by KK » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:55 pm

This is causing one or two cancelled subscriptions...




New migration figures released earlier today:

Non-EU migration to United Kingdom rises to 14 year high - but EU migration slows

Net migration from the European Union has fallen to its lowest level in six years, but migration from outside the EU is at its highest level since 2004, new figures show.

The Office for National Statistics said net migration of non-EU nationals in the year to June was 248,000 - the highest total in 14 years.

Meanwhile, net migration of EU nationals was 74,000 - the lowest since 2012.

That meant the UK's population rose by 273,000 due to immigration, with 49,000 British nations emigrating.

The total is down from record levels of around a third of a million two years ago but still well above the government's target of below 100,000.

The drop in EU migration has been mostly driven by changes in migration from E8 countries, with more people from Eastern Europe now leaving than arriving.

Departures have increased since the Brexit referendum. A weakened pound and improving economic conditions in Europe may have made the UK less attractive to EU migrants, according to Oxford University's Migration Observatory.

Axel Antoni, spokesperson for EU citizens' group The 3 Million, told Sky News he believed a lack of clarity about the future and rhetoric against migration in British politics was keeping "the best and brightest" away.

"If Theresa May thinks comments about queue jumpers are not listened to in the UK she's mistaken," he said.

Immigration minister Caroline Nokes said she was pleased migration had reduced and said the UK was "attracting and retaining highly skilled workers" and students who "bring significant benefits to our economy and universities".

"As we leave the EU we will put in place an immigration system which works in the best interests of the whole of the UK and further detail on that will be set out very soon," she said.

However, business leaders expressed concern over the numbers.

"These latest statistics highlight the continuing trend of falling net EU migration amid growing shortages across all skills levels in the UK," Matthew Fell, chief policy director at the Confederation of British Industry (CBI), said.

The figures were welcomed by Lord Green Deddington, the chairman of Migration Watch, who said: "The net inflow from the EU is still roughly the size of the British Army, despite cries of alarm from industry over Brexit."

The figures come as the government prepares to release its proposals for an immigration system post-Brexit - plans that have been much delayed and so far described in only vague terms.

Mr Antoni told Sky News that for Europeans and the UK the larger numbers leaving the UK was "very sad".

"People have made the UK their home and they're leaving their home," he said.

Satbir Singh, Chief Executive of the Joint Council for the Welfare of immigrants, said the drop was partly due to "toxic rhetoric".

"When a neighbour or a colleague or a friend says 'enough now' and leaves, we all lose out," he said.

https://news.sky.com/story/non-eu-migra ... s-11566853

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Partridge Iciclebubbles
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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:21 pm



:dread:

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Jenu-All I Want For Christmas » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:51 pm

Rocsteady wrote:
Preezy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:I actually agree with her. It's fine to be the Daily Mail 'clobber the bad guys' crowd, until a policeman runs over a 14 year old and kills him or her, or bystanders get injured. Police should always use reasonable and appropriate force and I'd argue smashing into a thief on a mo-ped in a police cruiser is massively excessive.

If you did any research into this at all you'd know that they don't smash into mopeds at all, they nudge the rear of the moped in the same way as a car would use the PIT maneuver against another car. It simply makes the moped wobble and become unstable, so the driver (normally wearing a helmet to hide their face) falls off. Never done at high speed, always done as a last resort.

Yeah, it's an effective and proportionate tactic.

For such a senior politician, Abbott really isn't great. Putting it very mildly.

Abbot is a tool in so many ways, but having actually looked at some of the footage of this it's clear that it's not as gentle a manoeuvre as is being made out here. There are examples of police full on ramming into mopeds and it is clearly excessive.

Yes stealing mopeds is wrong, yes using mopeds to commit crimes like acid attacks is incredibly wrong, the people doing these things bring consequences on themselves. But the perpetrator being killed by a police officer because they have been rammed off their bike is not justice.

Look at the example at about 12s on this video and tell me you think that this is safe and justified?

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by OrangeReindeer » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:57 pm

Jenuall wrote:But the perpetrator being killed by a police officer because they have been rammed off their bike is not justice.


Has this happened? It would appear to be both controlled and effective from what I've seen.

That video doesn't look bad either, the driver is clearly in control of the vehicle and stops immediately. They are traveling at some speed, but the relative speed between the car and bike is low.

That footage is released by the met too, so I imagine they're playing up the appearance for prevention purposes.

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:06 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:
Jenuall wrote:But the perpetrator being killed by a police officer because they have been rammed off their bike is not justice.


Has this happened? It would appear to be both controlled and effective from what I've seen.

That video doesn't look bad either, the driver is clearly in control of the vehicle and stops immediately. They are traveling at some speed, but the relative speed between the car and bike is low.

That footage is released by the met too, so I imagine they're playing up the appearance for prevention purposes.


I don’t think there are specific figures available for this new tactic, but people certainly die due to police chases.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/0 ... uble-year/

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by OrangeReindeer » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:22 pm

Yeah, it's obviously not good. It is thankfully a small number, I guess I am assuming that I'd have seen something in the news if someone had died as a result of this new tactic, because of how high profile it is

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by lex-man » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:05 pm

That doesn't look like it'd be fun but I don't think it's too bad. Watching the video the guy at the beginning just gets straight back up again. Considering the people have been committing crimes it's justified.

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Jenu-All I Want For Christmas » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:36 pm

It's about providing a proportional response and evaluating the level of risk involved.

Using a pit manoeuvre on a car is one thing as the driver is in a piece of equipment designed to protect them and something would have to go seriously wrong for it to cause serious injury or even come close to risking life.

But ramming a moped is extraordinarily dangerous, the rider could go anywhere, the moped could go anywhere - there are so many more variables and the target has little to no protection. The officer doing the ramming has such limited control over the outcome that it's almost unbelievable that actions like that one in the video are being deemed appropriate.

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:00 pm

lex-man wrote:That doesn't look like it'd be fun but I don't think it's too bad. Watching the video the guy at the beginning just gets straight back up again. Considering the people have been committing crimes it's justified.


The point is the risk of knocking off an innocent person, the chase itself leading to a cyclist/pedestrian being hit or even killing the criminal him/herself.

I mostly support the tactic but the police need to be very very careful when using it.

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Bethlehemster » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:44 am

It's a legitimate and effective technique. You don't want to risk being knocked off the moped? Don't steal one in the first place.
It's become an effective deterrent and seems to be used judiciously by the police. Accidents can and will happen but the risk is a calculated one taken by skilled professionals.
The only reckless and thoughtless approach to danger is by the miscreants themselves.

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I Believe In Stool Bloke
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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by I Believe In Stool Bloke » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:09 am

I agree with Denster.

:dread:

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by Bethlehemster » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:08 am

Feels Good doesn't it?


:nod:

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PostRe: Politics Thread 5
by lex-man » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:15 am

There stealing mobile phones not mooped, arn't they. Thees are the people who snatch phones and then take off on their bikes after. I'm guessing it's probably they do both.


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