Politics Thread 5

[Moggy]

I'd say it was impossible for an Asian with a Muslim background to become Tory leader, but I am sure people in 1974 also said the Tories would never have a female leader.

[OrangeRKN]

The Paris Commune (1871), the Free Territory (Ukraine, 1918-21), and Anarchist Catalonia (1936-39) are the examples I am most aware of and are all very interesting for the various reasons why they failed (spoilers: external influences)

"Our system wasn't gooseberry fool, it was everyone else's fault for picking on us"

The Paris Commune was ended by the French army marching into Paris, the Free Territory was turned on by the Bolsheviks who sent in the Red Army, and Anarchist Catalonia eventually fell to the nationalists in the Spanish Civil War after being continually eroded (and basically replaced) from within the Republican forces by the Spanish communists, who were backed by the USSR.

So in these instances yes, their failure is pretty categorically down to external influence.

[Hypes]

GRcade could be a communist utopia if it wasn't for Karl

[Moggy]

The Paris Commune (1871), the Free Territory (Ukraine, 1918-21), and Anarchist Catalonia (1936-39) are the examples I am most aware of and are all very interesting for the various reasons why they failed (spoilers: external influences)

"Our system wasn't gooseberry fool, it was everyone else's fault for picking on us"

The Paris Commune was ended by the French army marching into Paris, the Free Territory was turned on by the Bolsheviks who sent in the Red Army, and Anarchist Catalonia eventually fell to the nationalists in the Spanish Civil War after being continually eroded (and basically replaced) from within the Republican forces by the Spanish communists, who were backed by the USSR.

So in these instances yes, their failure is pretty categorically down to external influence.

The French army retaking Paris from revolutionaries, an anarchist "state" in Ukraine that took part in anti-semitic pogroms and Catalonia being controlled by various anarchist, communist, and socialist trade unions, parties, and militias that carried out extra judicial killings? Are those really the best examples you have?

None of those sound like they would have lasted even if outside influences had left them alone. And if they had lasted, they would have killed huge numbers of people that were too Jewish or not "revolutionary" enough.

[Benzin]

I think a Muslim becoming PM (especially a Tory one) would actually cause a lot of the gammons to have brain aneurysms...

[Lex-Man]

I wonder if would cause a swing to UKIP.

[Lagamorph]

I think many in Europe, and beyond, would just look on with absolute bewilderment at the Anti-immigrant increasingly far right UK suddenly electing a Muslim leader in the midst of everything else.

I'd absolutely love to see Trump's reaction

[OrangeRKN]

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue with me at this point.

- I said there isn't really a historical example of an economically far-left but non-authoritarian state
- You said such a thing was impossible
- I disagreed
- I gave three examples of attempts that kind of fit that description but failed because of demonstrably external factors

Don't ask for better examples when my opening statement was to say such examples don't exist

[Moggy]

I think many in Europe, and beyond, would just look on with absolute bewilderment at the Anti-immigrant increasingly far right UK suddenly electing a Muslim leader in the midst of everything else.

I'd absolutely love to see Trump's reaction

He’s not really a Muslim, he was raised as one but married a Christian and doesn’t practise any religion.

But that will make no difference to the gammons and to world leaders like Trump and Orban.

[Preezy]

I think many in Europe, and beyond, would just look on with absolute bewilderment at the Anti-immigrant increasingly far right UK suddenly electing a Muslim leader in the midst of everything else.

I'd absolutely love to see Trump's reaction

He’s not really a Muslim, he was raised as one but married a Christian and doesn’t practise any religion.

But that will make no difference to the gammons and to world leaders like Trump and Orban.

REVEALED! MUSLIM PM REPLACES COBRA HQ WITH UNDERGROUND MOSQUE!

[Moggy]

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue with me at this point.

- I said there isn't really a historical example of an economically far-left but non-authoritarian state
- You said such a thing was impossible
- I disagreed
- I gave three examples of attempts that kind of fit that description but failed because of demonstrably external factors

Don't ask for better examples when my opening statement was to say such examples don't exist

I never asked for examples in the first place!

- You said there were no examples of successful far-left non-authoritarian states
- I said that’s because those states wouldn’t work
- You then named three failed states
- I said well yeah, I said they wouldn’t work, were those really the best examples
- You then said “duh I said that already, stop asking for examples!”



I wouldn’t agree though that the Paris commune failed due to solely external factors. An anarchist rabble briefly taking over the capital city of a country before and then being crushed by that same country is hardly an external factor, it’s more of a civil war/failed revolution.

[Lex-Man]

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue with me at this point.

- I said there isn't really a historical example of an economically far-left but non-authoritarian state
- You said such a thing was impossible
- I disagreed
- I gave three examples of attempts that kind of fit that description but failed because of demonstrably external factors

Don't ask for better examples when my opening statement was to say such examples don't exist

I never asked for examples in the first place!

- You said there were no examples of successful far-left non-authoritarian states
- I said that’s because those states wouldn’t work
- You then named three failed states
- I said well yeah, I said they wouldn’t work, were those really the best examples
- You then said “duh I said that already, stop asking for examples!”



I wouldn’t agree though that the Paris commune failed due to solely external factors. An anarchist rabble briefly taking over the capital city of a country before and then being crushed by that same country is hardly an external factor, it’s more of a civil war/failed revolution.

Doesn't the same apply to the Spanish version as they were destroyed by civil war.

[Moggy]

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue with me at this point.

- I said there isn't really a historical example of an economically far-left but non-authoritarian state
- You said such a thing was impossible
- I disagreed
- I gave three examples of attempts that kind of fit that description but failed because of demonstrably external factors

Don't ask for better examples when my opening statement was to say such examples don't exist

I never asked for examples in the first place!

- You said there were no examples of successful far-left non-authoritarian states
- I said that’s because those states wouldn’t work
- You then named three failed states
- I said well yeah, I said they wouldn’t work, were those really the best examples
- You then said “duh I said that already, stop asking for examples!”



I wouldn’t agree though that the Paris commune failed due to solely external factors. An anarchist rabble briefly taking over the capital city of a country before and then being crushed by that same country is hardly an external factor, it’s more of a civil war/failed revolution.

Doesn't the same apply to the Spanish version as they were destroyed by civil war.

Yes, but I guess it could be argued that Catalonia is separate to Spain. I am not sure it could be argued that Paris is separate to France.

[OrangeRKN]

I was pretty obviously following up Karl's post when giving those examples

They are external factors when judging if it was a failure of the state/society itself that led to its downfall. At most you can argue it demonstrates a weakness /to/ external military intervention (I don't think that's a fair assessment in these situations), but their failure is certainly not proof of such a society being impossible.

[Moggy]

I was pretty obviously following up Karl's post when giving those examples

They are external factors when judging if it was a failure of the state/society itself that led to its downfall. At most you can argue it demonstrates a weakness /to/ external military intervention (I don't think that's a fair assessment in these situations), but their failure is certainly not proof of such a society being impossible.

Well no, the proof of such a society being impossible is that no such society has ever existed/succeeded and is never likely to.

[OrangeRKN]

That's not what proof is

[Moggy]

That's not what proof is

Do you really want to carry on with this?

[Preezy]

Please do, guys, I'm really enjoying it.

[Moggy]

Please do, guys, I'm really enjoying it.

Well as you started the whole thing, I am glad that you are enjoying it.

[That]

Workers of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!