Politics Thread 5

[That]

The Tories are systemically racist, ableist, and classist, with no problem courting the fascist underbelly of the right. They chose to enter coalition* with the deeply homophobic DUP. They have pandered to UKIP over Brexit since the start. They are the party of Windrush, open Islamophobia, and anti-Europeanism. Their welfare policies have resulted, directly, in the deaths of countless disabled people. They have extended mass surveillance and eroded legal procedures and balances. They hate the NHS, they hate benefits, they hate state education, their youth arm think anyone who's ever worn sportswear should be put in camps, and if you don't have a 6-figure income they hate you, personally.

Labour are not perfect. You don't have to like them, it is OK to criticise them, and they should have sorted this antisemitism thing out months ago. But if your seat is Labour vs. Tory then you should absolutely be holding your nose and voting Labour. I want proportional representation too, I hate first past the post too, I don't like feeling obliged to vote for a party that doesn't wholly represent my views either: but you've got to work with the system you have, and getting the Tories out is life or death for some.

* Yeah I know not technically, shut up Hexx

[Herdanos]

Labour have (to use a phrase once used to describe another party) been taken over by fruitcakes, loonies, and closet racists, and as such, are completely unelectable.

How so?

I too would like to know this

You do realise Vermilion is the human embodiment of the Daily Mail?

That's perhaps not the best way to encourage dialogue, but OK.

[Herdanos]

Excellent post Karl

[OrangeRKN]

I want proportional representation too, I hate first past the post too, I don't like feeling obliged to vote for a party that doesn't wholly represent my views either: but you've got to work with the system you have, and getting the Tories out is life or death for some.

The closest we've ever got to replacing FPTP was when lots of people voted for the Lib Dems and got them into coalition though...

Neither the Conservatives nor Labour will reform the voting system.

[Moggy]

There is a huge difference between racism in the Labour party and racism in the Conservatives - we all expect more from Labour.

I get that, but it is an argument similar to “WHAT ABOUT TORY ISLAMOPHOBIA!!” that some Labour supporters use to deflect attention. Yes we expect more from Labour, but that doesn’t mean the Tories shouldn’t sort themselves out.

They are not going to of course, Boris will probably be their leader in the next few years after all, but just because we don’t expect it of them, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t push them to do better. Because like it or not (and I strawberry floating hate it) they are likely to be our masters for quite some time to come.

[Moggy]

Labour are not perfect. You don't have to like them, it is OK to criticise them, and they should have sorted this antisemitism thing out months ago. But if your seat is Labour vs. Tory then you should absolutely be holding your nose and voting Labour.

Absolutely. I am actually lucky in that I quite like and respect my local Labour MP, so it makes the nose holding much easier.

If I was in an area where the Tories had no chance (assuming no UKIP or BNP threat!) then I wouldn’t be voting Labour.

[That]

I want proportional representation too, I hate first past the post too, I don't like feeling obliged to vote for a party that doesn't wholly represent my views either: but you've got to work with the system you have, and getting the Tories out is life or death for some.

The closest we've ever got to replacing FPTP was when lots of people voted for the Lib Dems and got them into coalition though...

Neither the Conservatives nor Labour will reform the voting system.

I am sure both Lib Dem MPs and all ten members are working really hard on a master plan to sweep to government. Once they've sorted that out I'll absolutely support them in electoral reform. Until then though I will vote Labour in my Labour vs. Tory constituency based on more immediate issues, such as "I hope my European partner doesn't get deported", "I hope the hospital is still there if I need to use it one day", and "I hope there will be a decent school for my hypothetical future kids to go to".

[OrangeRKN]

There is a huge difference between racism in the Labour party and racism in the Conservatives - we all expect more from Labour.

I get that, but it is an argument similar to “WHAT ABOUT TORY ISLAMOPHOBIA!!” that some Labour supporters use to deflect attention. Yes we expect more from Labour, but that doesn’t mean the Tories shouldn’t sort themselves out.

They are not going to of course, Boris will probably be their leader in the next few years after all, but just because we don’t expect it of them, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t push them to do better. Because like it or not (and I strawberry floating hate it) they are likely to be our masters for quite some time to come.

It was mostly a joke post tbh

But I do think it speaks some truth in how Labour seem to get called out and criticised a lot more for any racist behaviour - people are unfortunately desensitised to news about Tory racism. Just look at how Boris Johnson plays up the stereotype. His political career should have been absolutely crucified years ago, and I think probably would have been if he was in Labour.

[That]

Absolutely. I am actually lucky in that I quite like and respect my local Labour MP, so it makes the nose holding much easier.

If I was in an area where the Tories had no chance (assuming no UKIP or BNP threat!) then I wouldn’t be voting Labour.

Yeah totally, that's fair enough. I have voted Green in a Lib Dem safe seat before. Dat protest vote

[Hexx]

A lot seems to miss the point that it's not Labor vs Tory. (Let's ignore the smaller parties, and I'll include the SNP in here even though that's an entirely different kettle of fish)

It's therefore not "Hold your nose and vote Lab" vs "Vote Tory"

There's plenty of people that can and will be put off voting for either party - for very different reasons. That's a far bigger threat to both parties at the moment than the terrible leadership of their opposition.

Particularly when the message from Lab leadership on lots of topics (Brexit etc) boils down to "We're not gonna change our position. Hold your nose and vote for us - what else you gonna do?"

[Preezy]

Do you agree that

Labour have (to use a phrase once used to describe another party) been taken over by fruitcakes, loonies, and closet racists, and as such, are completely unelectable

Don't forget the communists!

[Vermilion]

You do realise Vermilion is the human embodiment of the Daily Mail?

That's perhaps not the best way to encourage dialogue, but OK.

Yeah, that's ridiculously harsh, especially since i voted Labour at the 2010 & 2015 elections.

As far as i'm concerned, the biggest problem with politics today is that everyone seems to have completely lost their minds, doesn't matter whether it's right wing tories or left wing labour, both sides of the political spectrum are a joke.

That said though, i particularly cannot stand the current Labour leadership or the cult of personality which surrounds Corbyn, and as a result, i (with regret) still would rather have the incompetent and useless Maybot in charge of things rather than allow that rabble anywhere near high office.

I just hope that sometime soon, a decent credible politican with a strong and likable team will come along and sweep the current disaster zone away.

[Moggy]

I just hope that sometime soon, a decent credible politican with a strong and likable team will come along and sweep the current disaster zone away.

[Vermilion]

I just hope that sometime soon, a decent credible politican with a strong and likable team will come along and sweep the current disaster zone away.

Oh dear god.

[OrangeRKN]

I am sure both Lib Dem MPs and all ten members are working really hard on a master plan to sweep to government. Once they've sorted that out I'll absolutely support them in electoral reform. Until then though I will vote Labour in my Labour vs. Tory constituency based on more immediate issues, such as "I hope my European partner doesn't get deported", "I hope the hospital is still there if I need to use it one day", and "I hope there will be a decent school for my hypothetical future kids to go to".

I'm not arguing against your decision, I just don't agree with the idea that it is pointless to vote for a third party in a seat that has the vote mainly split between Labour and the Conservatives. The wasted vote argument is self-perpetuating and there are recent past examples of a third party suddenly winning a seat that was considered a two way contest - and if you look abroad you can see examples of entirely new parties coming into power in a similar fashion.

That might be a little tangential to the point you were making with your post, I just get my back up whenever I'm reminded we still have FPTP!

[Moggy]

I just hope that sometime soon, a decent credible politican with a strong and likable team will come along and sweep the current disaster zone away.

Oh dear god.

Sorry, that was the wrong photo.

[Rex Kramer]

Sorry, that was the wrong photo.

How does someone who probably has access to the finest tailors in Britain manage to look so utterly ridiculous in a suit?

[Moggy]

Sorry, that was the wrong photo.

How does someone who probably has access to the finest tailors in Britain manage to look so utterly ridiculous in a suit?

He has been too busy dreaming of workhouses to find the time to go to his tailor.

[Vermilion]

I just hope that sometime soon, a decent credible politican with a strong and likable team will come along and sweep the current disaster zone away.

Oh dear god.

Sorry, that was the wrong photo.

[Knoyleo]

Labour, a party suggesting we maintain a proper social safety net, and that for banks are a sign of a broken society, are just as bad as the Tories, a party suggesting the poor pull themselves up by their bootstraps and hang themselves from the rafters with them, and that food banks are a sign the Victorian workhouses had the right idea.

Guess I'll just vote for the party that wants us to ride bikes to work instead.