Politics Thread 5

[Albert]

Crikey moggy, I like you and your posts but you don't have to get the last word in every single time. Sometimes it's ok to just let things go.

[OrangeRKN]

That's not what proof is

Do you really want to carry on with this?

Well now I'm interested in what this is and where you're going with it, especially if it involves defining anything that has no precedent as being impossible

[Hexx]

Workers of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!

I'm going to here everything you type in a New Zealand accent now

[Preezy]

Workers of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!

As a self-confessed "hard-left" person, what are you thoughts on the viability of a utopian hard-left state? Do you think it could work? Would you want go and live there if it did?

[Moggy]

That's not what proof is

Do you really want to carry on with this?

Well now I'm interested in what this is and where you're going with it, especially if it involves defining anything that has no precedent as being impossible

I meant it’s a dull and boring discussion and as we 98.3% agree, is it really worth carrying on?

And you have to reply to this so that Albear doesn’t think I’m trying to get the last word in.

[OrangeRKN]

Actually I think we only 98.2% agree

[Albert]

Actually I think we only 98.2% agree

No response from Moggy,

OrangeRKN declared winner.

[Moggy]

Actually I think we only 98.2% agree

I'll accept 98.25%.

[Garth]

twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1040280175748022274

[DML]

Crikey moggy, I like you and your posts but you don't have to get the last word in every single time. Sometimes it's ok to just let things go.

Gotta agree with this, its absolutely exhausting at times.

[Garth]

Leaked WhatsApps Show Downing Street Told Tory MEPs To Distance Themselves From Viktor Orban

Downing Street has privately told Conservative MEPs to distance themselves from Viktor Orban after they provoked outrage by voting in support of Hungary's authoritarian right-wing government on Wednesday.

WhatsApp messages leaked to BuzzFeed News reveal Number 10 intervened following intense criticism of Tory MEPs who voted to oppose measures against the Hungarian government in the European parliament. MEPs were instructed to share a tweet stating they do not support Orban and warned not to comment further on the matter.

The parliament in Strasbourg voted 448-197 in favour of launching disciplinary action against Hungary, after Orban's government was accused of attacks on the media, minorities, and the rule of law. Orban has been criticised for his rhetoric about "Muslim invaders" and calling migrants "poison".

Yet the Conservatives whipped their MEPs to oppose action against the Hungarian government. They were the only governing conservative party in western Europe to vote against the motion.

Labour said Theresa May had been "caught desperately trying to cover up that shameful decision".

The vote sparked a furious response from Jewish and Muslim groups in the UK. Marie van der Zyl, president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said: “It is very concerning that the Conservative Party MEPs chose to defend Hungary’s appalling track record, rather than supporting this motion to protect the rule of law.”

The Muslim Council of Britain added: "The Conservative Party has thus far resisted calls to have an inquiry into Islamophobia amongst its ranks. This latest action raises further concerns of bigotry in the party".

BuzzFeed News understands that during a meeting of the Conservative delegation of MEPs, where they were whipped to vote against the motion, some Tory MEPs raised concerns that the party had failed to give a formal assurance that their vote was not an endorsement of Orban. A Tory source with knowledge of the meeting said: "I suspect there are many reasons for this, including securing Hungary's support on Brexit."

Asked about Tory MEPs being whipped to back Hungary's government, a Downing Street spokesman said yesterday: "We weren't consulted in advance."

BuzzFeed News has seen messages sent in the Conservative MEPs' WhatsApp group today which show Downing Street has subsequently attempted to launch a clean-up operation. Number 10 is said to have ordered the Tories' European parliament chief whip Daniel Dalton to send a tweet distancing their MEPs from Orban.

A message from Ashley Fox, the leader of the Conservative party in the European parliament, said: "Downing Street have asked Dan D to tweet that our vote on Art 7 does not imply support for Orban." Fox ordered Tory MEPs to retweet the tweet and then stay silent on the matter: "Can I ask all members to retweet DD without further comment."

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/le ... ry-meps-to

twitter.com/LBC/status/1040215002282643456

[Squinty]

The Steel of the new Iron Lady

Can't even control her own party.

[Moggy]

Crikey moggy, I like you and your posts but you don't have to get the last word in every single time. Sometimes it's ok to just let things go.

Gotta agree with this, its absolutely exhausting at times.

It takes two to argue. I even offered to end the discussion with OR when I said “do you really want to continue”. It wasn’t even an argument with him, other people than you are allowed to discuss things you know.

But sure, drag it out some more DML, pick me out and then declare your horror that I’ve reacted to you. Poor DML, this’ll all be about you in the end.

strawberry floating standard.

[Oblomov Boblomov]

It takes two to argue, but one of them is always you .

I don't think it's a bad thing though. We'd have a lot less discussion to read and I'd learn a lot less if you weren't around being all annoying every hour of every day .

In summary, keep it up! Dat stamina .

[Garth]

twitter.com/Peston/status/1040307714172354561

[Moggy]

It takes two to argue, but one of them is always you .

I don't think it's a bad thing though. We'd have a lot less discussion to read and I'd learn a lot less if you weren't around being all annoying every hour of every day .

In summary, keep it up! Dat stamina .

I reply to people who reply to me. In all recent cases I have been defending myself when other people have jumped in on my viewpoint. Like strawberry float am I ignoring people just because DML, (strawberry floating DML!!) finds it exhausting. DML who PMs me because he feels people pick on him is now jumping in to criticise me for posting in a discussion he had nothing to do with? Twat.

I’m in a terrible mood this evening and spoiling for a fight so I’m logging off before I really let rip on people.

[That]

Workers of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!

As a self-confessed "hard-left" person, what are you thoughts on the viability of a utopian hard-left state? Do you think it could work? Would you want go and live there if it did?

Sure, that's an interesting question. In the short-term I personally believe we should take a series of iterative steps "down" and "left" on the political compass, driven by a process of democratic advocacy for those ideas. I don't think any of those steps would, individually, crash our society or our economy -- focusing on leftwards travel (is that the bit you're interested in?), those steps are things like "nationalise the trains" or "tax billionaires more" or "universal basic income". I think that's viable and, sure, I'd like to live in a country more like that.

But sure, one might eventually come up against a limit to how close to the bottom or leftmost edges some society can get while the rest of the planet is still broadly speaking a globalised capitalist economy. This was even recognised by Marx & Engels back in the day -- that's why it's "proletarians of all countries unite," y'know?


Fig.1: "more like crapitalism am i right?" - actual Marx quote

So in the long-term I think there needs to be a global effort to reevaluate how our economies work and how we distribute resources. And it needs to happen pretty soon (so, uh, maybe not so long-term!), because a bunch of scary stuff is about to all happen one after the other, probably in this order:
1. Real wages and living standards will continue to stagnate and even fall in the west for the average person (but not for the ultra-rich 1%)
2. Workers across developing countries will demand higher wages
3. Catastrophic climate change
4. Robots and machine learning will be able to do most jobs automatically

Point (1) is important because it violates a central promise of capitalists ("we will all get richer together") which keeps workers happy. Point (2) will be a big problem for multinational corporations who rely on there always being cheap labour somewhere out there. (3) will be a crisis that will require us to carefully plan the distribution of resources (according to need, not profit) if we want to avoid humanitarian disasters. And (4) will put huge numbers of people - unskilled and perhaps even skilled workers - out of work.

That's going to be a rough time, but I believe societies that have already got used to leftist ideas rather than expecting the invisible hand to take care of it all will be in a much better position to deal with it.

Does any of the above describe a utopia? I guess not really. I think the spirit of your question was maybe "could we have a revolution today and establish the communist dream overnight," and I guess that's just not the process I advocate or how I imagine or engage with leftist thought.

But hey, if you want the low-down on anarchocommunist utopias, then I mean OK, let's go!

Assuming we don't catastrophically own ourselves (nuclear war, climate change kills us all, etc.), I think it's pretty inevitable that humans will eventually construct a civilisation in which robots do all the work, resources come from mined asteroids, and everyone is an SJW soyboy cuck. Edgy far-left memelords like me half-jokingly call this utopian societal structure fully-automated luxury gay space communism:


Fig.2: the vaporwave aesthetic is very important to us

This is obviously all a big in-joke for & by weirdos (see, I am self-aware...) but I guess the answer is unironically yes, I would definitely like to live in an Iain M. Banks novel.

[Vermilion]

fully-automated luxury gay space communism

There was a movie with a similar title to that once, but using it here would have me banned for racism.

[DML]

It takes two to argue, but one of them is always you .

I don't think it's a bad thing though. We'd have a lot less discussion to read and I'd learn a lot less if you weren't around being all annoying every hour of every day .

In summary, keep it up! Dat stamina .

I reply to people who reply to me. In all recent cases I have been defending myself when other people have jumped in on my viewpoint. Like strawberry float am I ignoring people just because DML, (strawberry floating DML!!) finds it exhausting. DML who PMs me because he feels people pick on him is now jumping in to criticise me for posting in a discussion he had nothing to do with? Twat.

I’m in a terrible mood this evening and spoiling for a fight so I’m logging off before I really let rip on people.

To be fair, I didn't bring it up. Also it's more something you don't need to do to make your point, it's not some big criticism. People just pointing out you're the absolute king of the final word. Which you are.

[Moggy]

It takes two to argue, but one of them is always you .

I don't think it's a bad thing though. We'd have a lot less discussion to read and I'd learn a lot less if you weren't around being all annoying every hour of every day .

In summary, keep it up! Dat stamina .

I reply to people who reply to me. In all recent cases I have been defending myself when other people have jumped in on my viewpoint. Like strawberry float am I ignoring people just because DML, (strawberry floating DML!!) finds it exhausting. DML who PMs me because he feels people pick on him is now jumping in to criticise me for posting in a discussion he had nothing to do with? Twat.

I’m in a terrible mood this evening and spoiling for a fight so I’m logging off before I really let rip on people.

To be fair, I didn't bring it up. Also it's more something you don't need to do to make your point, it's not some big criticism. People just pointing out you're the absolute king of the final word. Which you are.

No, you just jumped in with this.

Gotta agree with this, its absolutely exhausting at times.

If it is so strawberry floating exhausting, why are you continuing?

I am not the king of the final word, I post a lot and will reply to people who reply to me. Last night I put Hexx on ignore - hardly the actions of somebody that wants the last word. Today I said to OR “do you really want to continue with this” - hardly the actions of somebody wanting the last word. In a discussion with KK I said “ok KK” and stopped posting - hardly the actions of somebody wanting the last word.

What you have done though is jump in on Albear’s post (I have zero problem with Albear btw) to either stir trouble or just to have a go at me. How lovely.

You are a sanctimonious twat at the best of times, but you’re really getting on my tits at the moment. King of the sanctimonious arseholes.

Put me on ignore if you don’t like my posts.