Politics Thread 5

[Tafdolphin]

I never joke.

Lol but seriously. Churchill was a horrible little man. He was instrumental in war effort and is due recognition for that, but we should not forget his previous deeds.

[Meep]

I woudl dispute the idea that the tories would be making 'mincemeat' out of the oppoisition if the referendum had been won. The loss of the referendum was at least partially due to the disillusionment and anger caused by austerity and it would be naive in the extreme to think that would have magically disapeared if there had been a remain result.

[Denster]

But to make the same point - he was still a great wartime PM although not in peacetime. Whether he was a racist or despicable human being is not the issue.

If not for him - your current residence would be a different place entirely.

Not condoning anything he said or did besides that.

[Denster]

I woudl dispute the idea that the tories would be making 'mincemeat' out of the oppoisition if the referendum had been won. The loss of the referendum was at least partially due to the disillusionment and anger caused by austerity and it would be naive in the extreme to think that would have magically disapeared if there had been a remain result.

Cameron would have made far greater headway with the lead that May had. Her arrogance and ineptitude were key factors on the Tories losing their majority.
A remain win would have meant far less disillusionment and Cameron wouldn’t have called a snap election. He’d have built in that success (ahead in the polls) and probably arranged the next leader to fight the 2020 election.

Brexit got rid of a fairly moderate tory and gave power and influence to the more extreme aspects of the right wing of the party. People I don’t associate myself with.





Well not much.

[<]:^D]

He won two general elections

Nope. One.

gave Scotland the choice of independence ( and passionately argued and lobbied for them to remain)

Much like the gay marriage thing this was inevitable at the time.

whilst we are never going to agree on his approach to austerity and the global banking crisis aftermath - at least he acted.
He took risks in order to try and achieve something for this country. He had to tackle the deficit and rising unemployment and he also gave people choice and power over their own futures.

He and Osbourne created a policy of austerity that targeted the country's most vulnerable and has led to untold suffering amongst the poorest demographics of the UK. His government scaled back increases in NHS funding in order to stripmine the institution and sell it off to corporate interests.

He acted alright.

He gave the people of Scotland a choice and they made it. Then he did the same for the whole of the uk. It’s easier to blame him for the results rather than ourselves or others far more worthy of derision.

As previously mentioned he bet the future of the country because he was losing the far-right of his party. He then led one of the most disastrous campaigns in modern political history (the Remain campaign) and in doing so ensured a monumental downturn in this country's future.

This view that’s he a rich tory boy only out for himself is the usual tripe perpetuated by many in here.

Born into extreme wealth...check. Had every privilege imaginable growing up...check. Eton graduate...check. Bullingdon Club member...check. When in power proceeded to pass multiple policies benefiting corporations and the rich...check.

Just what about him wasn't stereotypical Toryboy?

I await your numerous, vitriolic and anti tory responses now with relish.

Because this is who you are on here. You pop up every now and again, responding to awful Tory policy with a cheeky emoji or crude sexual term and everyone laughs and says 'Ooh Denster, he's a card." But you're not. You're someone with a genuinely nasty political viewpoint who has stated multiple times you don't give a gooseberry fool about others as long as you've got yours which is, of course, the Tory way.

It will never cease to amaze me that someone who works for the NHS, who spends his whole working life caring for others, can holds views so fundamentally contradictory when it comes to the bigger picture.

Should be worth a few pages and will no doubt amply demonstrate why I don’t post in here very often.

Please, please feel free to post even less.

I’m just a realist.

Also not true about the nhs. Speaking as someone who has worked for then for 21 years. I speak my actual opinions about issues. Just because they are ideologically opposed to yours there’s no need to take it so personally. Maybe it’s because you’re the delicate sensitive flower that you are.

youre not a realist, youre a selfish moron

[Tafdolphin]

Relevant:

I Don’t Know How To Explain To You That You Should Care About Other People
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/i- ... phKDLAPopg

Like many Americans, I’m having politics fatigue. Or, to be more specific, arguing-about-politics fatigue.

I haven’t run out of salient points or evidence for my political perspective, but there is a particular stumbling block I keep running into when trying to reach across the proverbial aisle and have those “difficult conversations” so smugly suggested by think piece after think piece:

I don’t know how to explain to someone why they should care about other people.

Personally, I’m happy to pay an extra 4.3 percent for my fast food burger if it means the person making it for me can afford to feed their own family. If you aren’t willing to fork over an extra 17 cents for a Big Mac, you’re a fundamentally different person than I am.

I’m perfectly content to pay taxes that go toward public schools, even though I’m childless and intend to stay that way, because all children deserve a quality, free education. If this seems unfair or unreasonable to you, we are never going to see eye to eye.

If I have to pay a little more with each paycheck to ensure my fellow Americans can access health care? SIGN ME UP. Poverty should not be a death sentence in the richest country in the world. If you’re okay with thousands of people dying of treatable diseases just so the wealthiest among us can hoard still more wealth, there is a divide between our worldviews that can never be bridged.

I don’t know how to convince someone how to experience the basic human emotion of empathy. I cannot have one more conversation with someone who is content to see millions of people suffer needlessly in exchange for a tax cut that statistically they’ll never see (do you make anywhere close to the median American salary? Less? Congrats, this tax break is not for you).

I cannot have political debates with these people. Our disagreement is not merely political, but a fundamental divide on what it means to live in a society, how to be a good person, and why any of that matters.

There are all kinds of practical, self-serving reasons to raise the minimum wage (fairly compensated workers typically do better work), fund public schools (everyone’s safer when the general public can read and use critical thinking), and make sure every American can access health care (outbreaks of preventable diseases being generally undesirable).

But if making sure your fellow citizens can afford to eat, get an education, and go to the doctor isn’t enough of a reason to fund those things, I have nothing left to say to you.

I can’t debate someone into caring about what happens to their fellow human beings. The fact that such detached cruelty is so normalized in a certain party’s political discourse is at once infuriating and terrifying.

The “I’ve got mine, so screw you,” attitude has been oozing from the American right wing for decades, but this gleeful exuberance in pushing legislation that will immediately hurt the most vulnerable among us is chilling.

Perhaps it was always like this. I’m (relatively) young, so maybe I’m just waking up to this unimaginable callousness. Maybe the emergence of social media has just made this heinous tendency more visible; seeing hundreds of accounts spring to the defense of policies that will almost certainly make their lives more difficult is incredible to behold.

I don’t know what’s changed ― or indeed, if anything has ― and I don’t have any easy answers. But I do know I’m done trying to convince these hordes of selfish, cruel people to look beyond themselves.

Futility can’t be good for my blood pressure, and the way things are going, I won’t have health insurance for long.

[Denster]

He won two general elections

Nope. One.

gave Scotland the choice of independence ( and passionately argued and lobbied for them to remain)

Much like the gay marriage thing this was inevitable at the time.

whilst we are never going to agree on his approach to austerity and the global banking crisis aftermath - at least he acted.
He took risks in order to try and achieve something for this country. He had to tackle the deficit and rising unemployment and he also gave people choice and power over their own futures.

He and Osbourne created a policy of austerity that targeted the country's most vulnerable and has led to untold suffering amongst the poorest demographics of the UK. His government scaled back increases in NHS funding in order to stripmine the institution and sell it off to corporate interests.

He acted alright.

He gave the people of Scotland a choice and they made it. Then he did the same for the whole of the uk. It’s easier to blame him for the results rather than ourselves or others far more worthy of derision.

As previously mentioned he bet the future of the country because he was losing the far-right of his party. He then led one of the most disastrous campaigns in modern political history (the Remain campaign) and in doing so ensured a monumental downturn in this country's future.

This view that’s he a rich tory boy only out for himself is the usual tripe perpetuated by many in here.

Born into extreme wealth...check. Had every privilege imaginable growing up...check. Eton graduate...check. Bullingdon Club member...check. When in power proceeded to pass multiple policies benefiting corporations and the rich...check.

Just what about him wasn't stereotypical Toryboy?

I await your numerous, vitriolic and anti tory responses now with relish.

Because this is who you are on here. You pop up every now and again, responding to awful Tory policy with a cheeky emoji or crude sexual term and everyone laughs and says 'Ooh Denster, he's a card." But you're not. You're someone with a genuinely nasty political viewpoint who has stated multiple times you don't give a gooseberry fool about others as long as you've got yours which is, of course, the Tory way.

It will never cease to amaze me that someone who works for the NHS, who spends his whole working life caring for others, can holds views so fundamentally contradictory when it comes to the bigger picture.

Should be worth a few pages and will no doubt amply demonstrate why I don’t post in here very often.

Please, please feel free to post even less.

I’m just a realist.

Also not true about the nhs. Speaking as someone who has worked for then for 21 years. I speak my actual opinions about issues. Just because they are ideologically opposed to yours there’s no need to take it so personally. Maybe it’s because you’re the delicate sensitive flower that you are.

youre not a realist, youre a selfish moron

Put me on ignore then. You whiny child.

[<]:^D]

i have never put anyone on ignore, and i dont intend to put you on it either - it will just inflate your ego to know youre an exception.

[Denster]

Yeah I’m uncaring. I don’t care about the homeless or the other issues like that. But I’m happy to give my taxes to others to try and solve them as that is their job. I care about the people who matter to me my friends, family and the people I look after for a living. I’ve been a nurse for 23 years and look after people in a caring, compassionate manner whilst also promoting their health, well being and helping them to deal with stigma, prejudice and all kinds of stressors. I do that and do it well and the feedback I get from friends, relatives of my patients, my patients and nd colleagues is more than enough for me. I let other people worry about wider issues. I think I’m accumulating enough moral brownie points.

I am cynical and I am pragmatic and seem quite callous. Part of that is me and part of that is desensitisation after working and seeing the stuff I have. It does help with objectivity though.

If I’m seen as uncaring - politically or otherwise I’m fine with that. I care enough about all need to care about.

Not that I need to explain myself to white knighting, sanctimonious guys on an Internet forum.

[Errkal]

Nice.

I care about people at work so strawberry float all the people suffering with no money or zero hour contracts.

[Denster]

I didn’t say strawberry float them. I just don’t worry about it. If that makes me less nice than you or others? I’m fine with that.
You can’t solve all the problems. The world isn’t a fair and just place all the time.

Like I said I’m a realist.

[jawafour]

Denster is more than capable of standing up for himself, but this does feel like people scrabbling to demonstrate that they're somehow on a higher level of morality. In my awareness, Denster is in a stressful and demanding job where he supports people who need a helping hand; it's responsible and honourable work that benefits society.

Just because he also votes Conservative and says that he has little influence over the wider injustices in society doesn't negate that position; it doesn't warrant accusations about his character.

[Moggy]

Denster is more than capable of standing up for himself, but this does feel like people scrabbling to demonstrate that they're somehow on a higher level of morality. In my awareness, Denster is in a stressful and demanding job where he supports people who need a helping hand; it's responsible and honourable work that benefits society.

Just because he also votes Conservative and says that he has little influence over the wider injustices in society doesn't negate that position; it doesn't warrant accusations about his character.

I'm a high functioning psychopath - I'm sorted!

[Denster]

All true.

So empathy is a bit tricky for me. Not my fault. Wasn’t loved enough as a child.

[Hexx]

Debater getting away with some rather repellent and unsavoury characteristics because at other times it’s ‘top bants’ is one of forums more long standing mysteries.

[Denster]

Although technically - I’m a malignant narcissist.

[Hexx]

Denster is more than capable of standing up for himself, but this does feel like people scrabbling to demonstrate that they're somehow on a higher level of morality. In my awareness, Denster is in a stressful and demanding job where he supports people who need a helping hand; it's responsible and honourable work that benefits society.

Just because he also votes Conservative and says that he has little influence over the wider injustices in society doesn't negate that position; it doesn't warrant accusations about his character.

Oh look! Some actual white knighting...from ‘Gammon will be thought of as bad as ******’ Jawa.

We live in strawberry floating odd times

[Denster]

Debater getting away with some rather repellent and unsavoury characteristics because at other times it’s ‘top bants’ is one of forums more long standing mysteries.

To be fair - I say an awful lot for effect. I’m not a bad person. Mischievous rather than Maleficent.

[Moggy]

Although technically - I’m a malignant narcissist.

You’re malignant alright, after all you’re a Northern Tory.

[Denster]

Although technically - I’m a malignant narcissist.

You’re malignant alright, after all you’re a Northern Tory.

To be fair you have no idea how difficult it is to be a tory Mancunian who is also a nurse. I get a lot of gooseberry fool for it. It’s no wonder I’m grumpy.