Progressives

Cultural appropriation is an odd one. I don’t see anything wrong a white person having dreads or Eminem making rap records. All culture is a mix of other cultural influences after all.

Where the problem lies (I think) is when things are done in a mocking, patronising or exploitative way. Wearing Native American headdresses on Halloween for instance.

Yea I think there's a big difference between sharing culture (which I have no problem with) and exploiting/appropriating culture.

Moggy wrote:Cultural appropriation is an odd one. I don’t see anything wrong a white person having dreads or Eminem making rap records. All culture is a mix of other cultural influences after all.

This is quite an interesting example, and there's been a lot written about Eminem over the years, and a white man being one of the most successful rap musicians of time. Generally, he seems to be seen as an example of someone white doing rap right. He openly acknowledges the situation, and is honest. He knows that some subject matter dealt with in a lot of rap music is out of bounds for him, and respects that. He's done huge amounts to promote black artists to white teenagers. He treats hip-hop as an art form with great respect and uses it to create good music.

Compare that with Iggy Azalea, who is constantly hounded for cultural appropriation. It's not hard to see why, just listen to her sing. She's from Australia, but she puts on an American "blackcent" when she sings. Combine that with the imagery she uses in her music videos, and the way she's marketed. She wasn't a breakout success in the same way Eminem was, she was carefully constructed by a record label, taking elements of black culture, and putting them on a blonde white girl, as that would sell more records.

Fancy is a banging track though.

Skarjo wrote:Fancy is a banging track though.

strawberry float off.

Skarjo wrote:She has a banging rack though.

Skarjo

Skarjo wrote:

Lucien wrote:...you don't think he's being racist when he attributes problems to 'whiteness'?

'Whiteness' is not synonymous with being white...

While a white person may not themselves be racist, they are invariably part of a system that is inherently racist and benefit from that system whether they like it or not in ways that non-white people cannot. A variety of examples of institutional racism have been revealed in America, obviously dating back to slavery but also since emancipation and continuing to the present, to which white Americans are simply immune.

While USA examples may not flawlessly carry over to Britain, we have our own issues (recently highlighted by Brexit) and the 'colour-blind' approach you advocated above with regards to misogyny, Lucien, is central to the perpetuation of all forms of institutionalised discrimination, since people who don't think that they themselves are prejudiced will bend over backwards to discount or gloss over the plight of minorities, compounded by the view that "I myself am not prejudiced, so it's not fair to attribute prejudice to my majority group generally - it must just be a few bad apples".

With regard to cultural appropriation, it isn't possible for the minority to appropriate the dominant culture, since that culture is the default to which the minority is expected to comply. As has been said, the problem is when the majority appropriate all the best bits of minority culture while at the same time demonising and repressing them. Timberlake, Bieber and Azalea are not the problem - they are merely the manifestation of a much deeper malaise.

mic wrote: Timberlake, Bieber and Azalea are not the problem - they are merely the manifestation of a much deeper malaise.

As Knoyleo said, there is a difference between somebody that loves a genre and so makes their own version of it, to somebody who just takes bits of it in order to make lots of money. And even then, does anybody seriously think that Timberlake, Bieber or Azalea are a problem (forget whether you like their music or not) to culture or black lives in general?

White people have made Black music for well over half a century now. As Eminem so wisely said “Though I'm not the first king of controversy, I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley. To do black music so selfishly, and use it to get myself wealthy”. Is that an issue?

Moggy wrote:...Is that an issue?

It becomes an issue when, making essentially the same music as a black artist, the success of a white artist and their ability to become mainstream and sell music to the predominantly white masses, is predicated entirely upon the fact that they are white. Associating with 50 Cent may give Eminem 'street' credibility, but you won't hear 50 Cent's own music in the mainstream, or outside of a hip-hop oriented broadcast, just as Bieber and Timberlake are mainstream while thousands of black artists are confined to RnB, making the same music. It could therefore be inferred that the success of these white artists is therefore directly attributable to the lack of mainstream success for the black artists who proceeded them, as well as those who follow after. Of course there are notable exceptions of black mainstream artists - Kanye West comes to mind - but those exceptions prove the rule.

Further, in the case of Eminem, he glamorises many negative aspects of hip hop, leading to the continued stigmatisation of black people as 'thugs', while he himself never lived through those experiences that fuel the genre. Drugs, generational poverty, discrimination by police and imprisonment are a reality for the vast majority of black people in America, yet Eminem uses these, in conjunction with his white privilege, to make money.

Of course, black hip hop artists are far from being without blame in the perpetuation of negative stereotypes (although I have heard very convincing evidence that there is an agenda being pushed by record label executives), but that still doesn't excuse Eminem personally.

mic wrote:
It becomes an issue when, making essentially the same music as a black artist, the success of a white artist and their ability to become mainstream and sell music to the predominantly white masses, is predicated entirely upon the fact that they are white.

That may be true of some white rappers, but Eminem was successful because he was good, not because he was white.

Associating with 50 Cent may give Eminem 'street' credibility, but you won't hear 50 Cent's own music in the mainstream, or outside of a hip-hop oriented broadcast,

Eminem was famous before 50 Cent. And 50 Cent had plenty of commercial radio/music TV airplay.

just as Bieber and Timberlake are mainstream while thousands of black artists are confined to RnB, making the same music. It could therefore be inferred that the success of these white artists is therefore directly attributable to the lack of mainstream success for the black artists who proceeded them, as well as those who follow after. Of course there are notable exceptions of black mainstream artists - Kanye West comes to mind - but those exceptions prove the rule.

I don’t think that is true at all. There are just as many white artists that never make it, the music business is a harsh one (especially nowadays) for people of all races.

Would the reverse be true? Should black people be looked at with suspicion if they are making “white” music? Whatever the hell white music is anyway.

Further, in the case of Eminem, he glamorises many negative aspects of hip hop, leading to the continued stigmatisation of black people as 'thugs', while he himself never lived through those experiences that fuel the genre. Drugs, generational poverty, discrimination by police and imprisonment are a reality for the vast majority of black people in America, yet Eminem uses these, in conjunction with his white privilege, to make money.

Again I don’t think any of that is true. Eminem never pretends to be black and he raps about what he knows, things like his wife and daughter, his mother, drugs at parties, the poverty he grew up in in Detroit etc. I haven’t listened to Eminem in years so maybe his later stuff spoke about the issues you mentioned?

Of course, black hip hop artists are far from being without blame in the perpetuation of negative stereotypes (although I have heard very convincing evidence that there is an agenda being pushed by record label executives), but that still doesn't excuse Eminem personally.

Black hip hop does what it does because it made a strawberry float load of money in the late 80s and throughout the 90s. The “gangsta” myth appealed to people, movies were made, careers were formed, money was earned and empires forged. Eminem came in on the tail end of that, but again I fail to see what he has done to push negative stereotypes of black people, other than the fact that he raps over a beat.

Moggy wrote:

mic wrote:
It becomes an issue when, making essentially the same music as a black artist, the success of a white artist and their ability to become mainstream and sell music to the predominantly white masses, is predicated entirely upon the fact that they are white.

That may be true of some white rappers, but Eminem was successful because he was good, not because he was white.

From Eminem himself: "If I was black, I woulda sold half"

http://genius.com/835927

Knoyleo wrote:

Moggy wrote:

mic wrote:
It becomes an issue when, making essentially the same music as a black artist, the success of a white artist and their ability to become mainstream and sell music to the predominantly white masses, is predicated entirely upon the fact that they are white.

That may be true of some white rappers, but Eminem was successful because he was good, not because he was white.

From Eminem himself: "If I was black, I woulda sold half"

http://genius.com/835927

Selling half of what Eminem has sold is still successful, no?

Moggy wrote:

Knoyleo wrote:

Moggy wrote:

mic wrote:
It becomes an issue when, making essentially the same music as a black artist, the success of a white artist and their ability to become mainstream and sell music to the predominantly white masses, is predicated entirely upon the fact that they are white.

That may be true of some white rappers, but Eminem was successful because he was good, not because he was white.

From Eminem himself: "If I was black, I woulda sold half"

http://genius.com/835927

Selling half of what Eminem has sold is still successful, no?

Still successful, yeah, but the important part is that half of his success being attributed purely to his skin colour. He's benefiting massively from being a white rapper.

Lucien wrote:

mic wrote:Just so I can check this - your view would be laws can be discriminatory based on what the social situation is? I'm only curious, since I wouldn't have thought you'd say that (personally).

Not sure what you mean by 'based on the social situation'? I have no issue with laws that enforce equality and prevent discrimination. While I can sympathise with Christians who are unwilling to provide services to homosexuals, for example, I have far more sympathy for the homosexuals discriminated against. I like affirmative action as a means of redressing the cis white male imbalance a little at a time.

I disagree, however, that black people should receive longer sentences for committing the same crimes as white people, which is a variable social situation, I think... Does that help?

Knoyleo wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Knoyleo wrote:

Moggy wrote:

mic wrote:
It becomes an issue when, making essentially the same music as a black artist, the success of a white artist and their ability to become mainstream and sell music to the predominantly white masses, is predicated entirely upon the fact that they are white.

That may be true of some white rappers, but Eminem was successful because he was good, not because he was white.

From Eminem himself: "If I was black, I woulda sold half"

http://genius.com/835927

Selling half of what Eminem has sold is still successful, no?

Still successful, yeah, but the important part is that half of his success being attributed purely to his skin colour. He's benefiting massively from being a white rapper.

I'm not sure I agree. If being white made somebody a successful rapper then we would be overrun with successful white rappers. How many can you name, that have had sustained success (not one or two hit wonders)? There are countless successful black rappers but very very few white ones. When Eminem emerged, the thought of a white rapper conjured up an image of Vanilla Ice, not an image of a credible and long lasting hip hop star.

Eminem is also in a subgenre of his own. He uses hip hop beats and rap, but the lyrics are pretty far removed from most rap. His first couple of albums are a mix of comedy tracks and tracks dealing with pretty dark obsessions. He's not rapping about gangstas, bitches and bling like the other rappers of the era were.

Sure he might have looked a little more "mainstream" because of his colour, but I think it vastly underestimates his talent to suggest his success came down to skin colour.

@Moggy and Lucien - Nobody is claiming that Eminem is successful because he is white. The point is, that his success has been amplified by being white. If he'd been making the same music, but was black, would he have been as successful as he has been? I'm not trying to do down his talent at all, I enjoy his music myself, (this discussion has even prompted me to put The Marshal Mathers LP on,) but even he has said himself that he's been at a massive advantage in terms of commercial success because he is white.

Fake edit: Did Lucien delete his last post?

Knoyleo wrote:@Moggy and Lucien - Nobody is claiming that Eminem is successful because he is white. The point is, that his success has been amplified by being white. If he'd been making the same music, but was black, would he have been as successful as he has been? I'm not trying to do down his talent at all, I enjoy his music myself, (this discussion has even prompted me to put The Marshal Mathers LP on,) but even he has said himself that he's been at a massive advantage in terms of commercial success because he is white.

Fake edit: Did Lucien delete his last post?

It's obviously impossible to know how successful a black Eminem would have been. His lyrics and subjects are different to most rappers, would it work as well if a black person was rapping about Christina Aguilera giving him VD? I would hope STD based rhymes were not for the exclusive use of one race, but we will never know until Drake tells us what he caught off of Miley Cyrus.

Moggy wrote:

Knoyleo wrote:@Moggy and Lucien - Nobody is claiming that Eminem is successful because he is white. The point is, that his success has been amplified by being white. If he'd been making the same music, but was black, would he have been as successful as he has been? I'm not trying to do down his talent at all, I enjoy his music myself, (this discussion has even prompted me to put The Marshal Mathers LP on,) but even he has said himself that he's been at a massive advantage in terms of commercial success because he is white.

Fake edit: Did Lucien delete his last post?

It's obviously impossible to know how successful a black Eminem would have been. His lyrics and subjects are different to most rappers, would it work as well if a black person was rapping about Christina Aguilera giving him VD? I would hope STD based rhymes were not for the exclusive use of one race, but we will never know until Drake tells us what he caught off of Miley Cyrus.

You're right, it is impossible to know how successful a black Eminem would be, and undoubtedly, he would be making significantly different music. It doesn't change the fact though, that the biggest selling artist in a genre that's populated by by predominantly black artists, is still white. Eminem consistently outsells his black contemporaries, even those who produce music of as great a quality.

There's a huge number of factors that have contributed to the level of his success, and we'll never be able to measure them in isolation. But to assume that his being white didn't have an effect, either by being more easily "marketable" for a record label, having radio/TV stations more willing to play his songs/videos, or even just the novelty of being a genuinely good white rapper rather than just another good black rapper, is turning a blind eye to the broader social preference for whiteness in America that this conversation began with.

Knoyleo wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Knoyleo wrote:@Moggy and Lucien - Nobody is claiming that Eminem is successful because he is white. The point is, that his success has been amplified by being white. If he'd been making the same music, but was black, would he have been as successful as he has been? I'm not trying to do down his talent at all, I enjoy his music myself, (this discussion has even prompted me to put The Marshal Mathers LP on,) but even he has said himself that he's been at a massive advantage in terms of commercial success because he is white.

Fake edit: Did Lucien delete his last post?

It's obviously impossible to know how successful a black Eminem would have been. His lyrics and subjects are different to most rappers, would it work as well if a black person was rapping about Christina Aguilera giving him VD? I would hope STD based rhymes were not for the exclusive use of one race, but we will never know until Drake tells us what he caught off of Miley Cyrus.

You're right, it is impossible to know how successful a black Eminem would be, and undoubtedly, he would be making significantly different music. It doesn't change the fact though, that the biggest selling artist in a genre that's populated by by predominantly black artists, is still white. Eminem consistently outsells his black contemporaries, even those who produce music of as great a quality.

There's a huge number of factors that have contributed to the level of his success, and we'll never be able to measure them in isolation. But to assume that his being white didn't have an effect, either by being more easily "marketable" for a record label, having radio/TV stations more willing to play his songs/videos, or even just the novelty of being a genuinely good white rapper rather than just another good black rapper, is turning a blind eye to the broader social preference for whiteness in America that this conversation began with.

I did acknowledge his whiteness may have had an impact, I just don't think it is as great an impact as you (and Eminem himself) think.

If being white was such an advantage in rap music, especially in as racially prejudiced a country as the US, then you would expect the majority of best selling rap artists to be white. Other than Eminem and the Beastie Boys, I'm struggling to think of any others.

His success is 90% talent and 10% whiteness, but I think the whiteness is more his lyrics being more relatable to white America than his actual skin colour.

To be fair, Eminem might not be the best example since he is actually good, so, if I may, I'll withdraw him from the conversation so that we can focus upon the likes of Timberlake, Azalea and Bieber, none of whom can be said to be especially good or deserving of their success accept that they are white artists making black music.

Lucien, I agree wholeheartedly with police treating misogyny as hate crimes and would support national laws to that effect. While women are far and away the recipients of most sexually motivated abuse and harassment, I'm sure that such laws would apply equally to misandry, even if this wasn't emphasised to the same extent.