Religion

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Moggy
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PostRe: Religion
by Moggy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:37 pm

To stop being silly, I guess from a atheist/science perspective then things are created from destruction all the time. The big bang must have been pretty overwhelmingly explosive but created everything. Most of the elements that make up our bodies came from burning/exploding stars, volcanos can destroy but areas around them are highly fertile and wildfires destroy plants but also encourage new life to form (I think some trees in Australia need fire in order to reproduce).

So OR’s bins might be destroyed, but the food that spilled out will have fed a new army of super strong rats that will soon invade his kitchen.

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Photek
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PostRe: Religion
by Photek » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:37 pm

FudgeDiver wrote:nuke the taigs

:|

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Religion
by OrangeRKN » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:40 pm

Makes sense. It's an interesting belief because it's easy to understand and one most people seem to agree with, yet really difficult to strictly define without finding loopholes/problems with it.

The "net happiness" is particularly troublesome because you can construct an argument against it by showing how it can hypothetically justify things live slavery or murder, but I know when people say it they don't mean those things, and there isn't really a better away of putting across the general sentiment of "strive to make things better and try to avoid doing harm".

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PostRe: Religion
by Green Gecko » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:43 pm

Yes.

Slavery is bad m'kay. But I don't believe wealth is intrinsically linked to happiness. So the suffering in this case would be immense, and I could never justify slavery in the sense of, destroying freedoms to create an easier life.

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PostRe: Religion
by Rik_ » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:04 pm

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PostRe: Religion
by Gemini73 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:09 pm

Uh, yeah....great logic. :lol:

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That
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PostRe: Religion
by That » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:10 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:Makes sense. It's an interesting belief because it's easy to understand and one most people seem to agree with, yet really difficult to strictly define without finding loopholes/problems with it. [...]

I'm a solipsist utilitarian.

Looking out for #1. :datass:

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PostRe: Religion
by Blue Eyes » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:14 pm

Riksilver wrote:Image

I can't tell if that's meant to be a joke.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Religion
by Moggy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:18 pm

Riksilver wrote:Image


What actually happened though was that the thief was a crackhead who while racing away on the bike, hit a pedestrian killing them instantly. Not content with that, the crackhead then jumped back onto the bike and rode out across a road before getting hit by a lorry, killing himself, destroying the bike and setting the lorry driver up for a lifetime of post traumatic stress disorder.

So actually by not buying a better lock for your bike, you have massively decreased the happiness in the world.

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PostRe: Religion
by Preezy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:25 pm

Hyperion wrote:
Preezy wrote:Also bonus silly question for the lolz:

Could God create a being more powerful than Himself?

Answers on a postcard.


No. God is supposedly omnipotent

So if He can't create a being more powerful than Himself, then He can't be all-powerful. And if He can create a being more powerful than Himself, then He also can't be all-powerful.

The concept of an all-powerful deity is fundamentally paradoxical.

I know this isn't anything new and you've all probably heard the argument before, but I feel it's worth repeating.

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PostRe: Religion
by Hypes » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:32 pm

Preezy wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Preezy wrote:Also bonus silly question for the lolz:

Could God create a being more powerful than Himself?

Answers on a postcard.


No. God is supposedly omnipotent

So if He can't create a being more powerful than Himself, then He can't be all-powerful. And if He can create a being more powerful than Himself, then He also can't be all-powerful.

The concept of an all-powerful deity is fundamentally paradoxical.

I know this isn't anything new and you've all probably heard the argument before, but I feel it's worth repeating.


I would say you're confusing all-powerful as something that can be quantified when it's infinite. It's like you're asking for a number higher than infinity

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PostRe: Religion
by Moggy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:32 pm

Preezy wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Preezy wrote:Also bonus silly question for the lolz:

Could God create a being more powerful than Himself?

Answers on a postcard.


No. God is supposedly omnipotent

So if He can't create a being more powerful than Himself, then He can't be all-powerful. And if He can create a being more powerful than Himself, then He also can't be all-powerful.

The concept of an all-powerful deity is fundamentally paradoxical.

I know this isn't anything new and you've all probably heard the argument before, but I feel it's worth repeating.


Can humans create a computer than is more intelligent than we are? If so, can that computer create something more powerful than itself? Can that go on forever, or is there a limit to intelligence? If there is a limit, is the unimaginably powerful final computer at the end of the chain a God? If so, does that mean humans created a god?

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Religion
by OrangeRKN » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:32 pm

God could still be all-powerful within the context of the universe.

Imagine that we are living in a computer simulation. The scientist on the outside could be reasonably described as all-powerful in relationship to the simulation as he can change whatever parameters he pleases, but that doesn't mean he can create a new scientist more powerful than himself on the outside.

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PostRe: Religion
by Moggy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:48 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:God could still be all-powerful within the context of the universe.

Imagine that we are living in a computer simulation. The scientist on the outside could be reasonably described as all-powerful in relationship to the simulation as he can change whatever parameters he pleases, but that doesn't mean he can create a new scientist more powerful than himself on the outside.


Have you seen the state of this simulation?

It’s not a scientist in control, we are living inside a sadistic teenager's game of Sim City.

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PostRe: Religion
by Preezy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:50 pm

Moggy wrote:If there is a limit, is the unimaginably powerful final computer at the end of the chain a God? If so, does that mean humans created a god?

No because it would still have been something created from simple origins that evolved into a complex thing.

The God of the Bible is a complex being right from the start. Complex things arrive late in the universe, like cars and internet forums and sybians.

Again, I know you probably know this, I'm just regurgitating what other more articulate atheists have already said.

OrangeRakoon wrote:Imagine that we are living in a computer simulation...

Might not be that far from the truth :dread:

But anyway, your scenario of course would be correct, but the Bible isn't claiming that.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Religion
by Moggy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:56 pm

Preezy wrote:
Moggy wrote:If there is a limit, is the unimaginably powerful final computer at the end of the chain a God? If so, does that mean humans created a god?

No because it would still have been something created from simple origins that evolved into a complex thing.

The God of the Bible is a complex being right from the start. Complex things arrive late in the universe, like cars and internet forums and sybians.

Again, I know you probably know this, I'm just regurgitating what other more articulate atheists have already said.


Does the Bible state that God is a complex being at the start?

The opening line is "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth". I don't think it mentions what God was up to before that. Humans have assumed that God is a powerful omnipotent force, but maybe he is an escaped science experiment from a parallel universe.

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Religion
by OrangeRKN » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:56 pm

Preezy wrote:But anyway, your scenario of course would be correct, but the Bible isn't claiming that.


Sure, I just don't think the concept of an "all powerful" god (from our perspective) is necessarily paradoxical.

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PostRe: Religion
by Vermilion » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:57 pm

Moggy wrote:It’s not a scientist in control, we are living inside a sadistic teenager's game of Sim City.


Pffft, Cities Skylines is the top city builder now so they'd likely be using that.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Religion
by Moggy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:08 pm

Vermilion wrote:
Moggy wrote:It’s not a scientist in control, we are living inside a sadistic teenager's game of Sim City.


Pffft, Cities Skylines is the top city builder now so they'd likely be using that.


I never said it was a rich teenager who could afford the latest and fanciest games. This is Sim City 2000, you ought to see the lucky buggers living in the Cities Skylines universe. :x

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PostRe: Religion
by Jenuall » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:33 pm

Hyperion wrote:
Preezy wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Preezy wrote:Also bonus silly question for the lolz:

Could God create a being more powerful than Himself?

Answers on a postcard.


No. God is supposedly omnipotent

So if He can't create a being more powerful than Himself, then He can't be all-powerful. And if He can create a being more powerful than Himself, then He also can't be all-powerful.

The concept of an all-powerful deity is fundamentally paradoxical.

I know this isn't anything new and you've all probably heard the argument before, but I feel it's worth repeating.


I would say you're confusing all-powerful as something that can be quantified when it's infinite. It's like you're asking for a number higher than infinity


This. The only paradox is the flawed premise of the question.

Regarding the sadistic teenagers and Sim City - this is bringing back wonderfully destructive memories of building up lovely cities only to purposefully wipe them out with a sequence of natural disasters! :nod: We used to edit the graphics files on SimCity 2000 to replace things like the tornado with creatures from DOOM, there was something delightful about watching a Cyberdemon trample across the residential district of a hand crafted city!


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