US Politics - Trump cancels summit having to do with North Korea

Moggy wrote:

Hexx wrote:
Edit - Damn it Moggy

You can't do the "damn it" thing when your post is almost 20 minutes later.

I was doing some chores and when I picked up phone his question was last shown.

Also you explained it bettte

captain red dog wrote:That's not a strawman, if you pull down General Lee's statue cus slavery, then you have to hold Washington and Jefferson to that same standard. They aren't nice slave owners because they had a bit of guilt about it. From memory Jefferson even had a reputation for flogging his slaves. These weren't nice people, despite what the nationalist propoganda about "founding fathers" might tell you.

I am no fan of Washington or Jefferson, but they are remembered for different reasons.

Washington/Jefferson are remembered as they were the founding fathers of an entire nation.

General Lee is remembered as a general in the Confederate army.

There is a vast difference.

People like Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan speaking out about this despite the fact that for years they have been trying to suppress minority rights (the right to vote) under the guise of voter fraud. strawberry float off you insufferable banana splits.

Hexx wrote:
Also you explained it bettte

captain red dog wrote:

Hexx wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Hexx wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Kanbei wrote:

KK wrote:Donald Trump has just given a hell of a press conference apparently. Can't wait to read about it...

Well he just compared taking down a statue of General Lee to taking down a statue of Thomas Jefferson or George Washington

Well Washington and Jefferson owned slaves so that's not a bad comparison.

Did they go to war with their own country for the right to keep them?

Oh.

So terrible comparison.

My bad, they just owned the slaves and made profit off them which is totally fine.

Straw man. Try again.

Maybe you won't embarrass yourself like last time you tried the racist apologist s htick

That's not a strawman, if you pull down General Lee's statue cus slavery, then you have to hold Washington and Jefferson to that same standard. They aren't nice slave owners because they had a bit of guilt about it. From memory Jefferson even had a reputation for flogging his slaves. These weren't nice people, despite what the nationalist propoganda about "founding fathers" might tell you.

I have held them to same standard.

I even explained how they're different in acts can be judged to that same standard,
Going 'whatabout...' doesn't change that

(Edit - because does and doesn't are different!)

And no ones talking about them being 'nice' - Strawman 2: The restrawening.'

Moggy wrote:

Hexx wrote:
Also you explained it bettte

Oh shush you. For me that's basically perfect.

captain red dog wrote:

Hexx wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Hexx wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Kanbei wrote:

KK wrote:Donald Trump has just given a hell of a press conference apparently. Can't wait to read about it...

Well he just compared taking down a statue of General Lee to taking down a statue of Thomas Jefferson or George Washington

Well Washington and Jefferson owned slaves so that's not a bad comparison.

Did they go to war with their own country for the right to keep them?

Oh.

So terrible comparison.

My bad, they just owned the slaves and made profit off them which is totally fine.

Straw man. Try again.

Maybe you won't embarrass yourself like last time you tried the racist apologist s htick

That's not a strawman, if you pull down General Lee's statue cus slavery, then you have to hold Washington and Jefferson to that same standard. They aren't nice slave owners because they had a bit of guilt about it. From memory Jefferson even had a reputation for flogging his slaves. These weren't nice people, despite what the nationalist propoganda about "founding fathers" might tell you.

George Washington was a slave owner. General Lee fought and forced men to die for the right to own slaves. There's a difference.

twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/897711789940633600

Trump during that speech wrote:Everybody said his statement was beautiful...

...the second statement was made with knowledge, great knowledge...

SHUT THE strawberry float UP YOU ORANGE banana split.

Christ it is infuriating just listening to his speech pattern, he qualifies everything he says with a follow up that it's beautiful or great or tremendous even when it doesn't make sense. strawberry floating moron. Genuinely hope he dies soon, such a chode.

Mafro wrote:

twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/897711789940633600

I'm stunned that a Leave supporting group would also love Trumpy.

Moggy wrote:

captain red dog wrote:That's not a strawman, if you pull down General Lee's statue cus slavery, then you have to hold Washington and Jefferson to that same standard. They aren't nice slave owners because they had a bit of guilt about it. From memory Jefferson even had a reputation for flogging his slaves. These weren't nice people, despite what the nationalist propoganda about "founding fathers" might tell you.

I am no fan of Washington or Jefferson, but they are remembered for different reasons.

Washington/Jefferson are remembered as they were the founding fathers of an entire nation.

General Lee is remembered as a general in the Confederate army.

There is a vast difference.

I don't care what they are "remembered" as, that is entirely irrelevant to the reality. They owned slaves, Jefferson even treated them badly according to some accounts. If General Lee shouldn't have a statue then Washington and Jefferson shouldn't either.

They were both presidents, they could have stopped the practice, and the nation they broke away from outlawed slavery within their life time.

captain red dog wrote:

Moggy wrote:

captain red dog wrote:That's not a strawman, if you pull down General Lee's statue cus slavery, then you have to hold Washington and Jefferson to that same standard. They aren't nice slave owners because they had a bit of guilt about it. From memory Jefferson even had a reputation for flogging his slaves. These weren't nice people, despite what the nationalist propoganda about "founding fathers" might tell you.

I am no fan of Washington or Jefferson, but they are remembered for different reasons.

Washington/Jefferson are remembered as they were the founding fathers of an entire nation.

General Lee is remembered as a general in the Confederate army.

There is a vast difference.

I don't care what they are "remembered" as, that is entirely irrelevant to the reality.

In your last post you were literally talking about how Jefferson was remembered (oh and in this post too. Brilliant. I mean I know you're not that clever, but come on - you're better than this)

They owned slaves, Jefferson even treated them badly according to some accounts. If General Lee shouldn't have a statue then Washington and Jefferson shouldn't either.

They were both presidents, they could have stopped the practice, and the nation they broke away from outlawed slavery within their life time.

[/quote]

Strawman 3: This time it's even more stupid.

You've redefined the metric to suit your agenda. The position is "Someone who fought and killed his countryman over his right to own slaves" doesn't deserve to be put in a pedalstal, but a muesum.

All the whataboutery in the world doesn't change that.

General Lee doesn't deserve a statue. Neither do Washington or Jefferson. They owned slaves and quite a few at that. Slavery is an abomination. The fact you have painted yourself into a corner to defend statues of two slavers is absolutely incredible.

captain red dog wrote:General Lee doesn't deserve a statue. Neither do Washington or Jefferson. They owned slaves and quite a few at that. Slavery is an abomination. The fact you have painted yourself into a corner to defend statues of two slavers is absolutely incredible.

Ok at this point you're just trolling.

No one is even talking about half the issues you're trying to bring up - and you refuse to respond to what anyone is actually saying

Baiting people with antagonistic style isn't going to change that (I did particularly like your cretin remark yesterday after your whinging in the Brexitique thread)

Having statues of people who founded the US is clearly not the same as having statues of traitors to the US who took up arms to keep and expand slavery about a century later. Many of these Confederacy statues symbolise white supremacy and were erected long after the end of the civil war at state-owned buildings etc at times of great racial divide, in support of segregation laws for example and to remind African-Americans who holds power and to put them in their place. The Confederate flag became much more popular again in the Civil Rights era of the 1960s for instance, as it was used as a political statement aimed at African-Americans. So you can see, many of these Confederacy statues and symbols were made and used for racist purposes, while statues of founding fathers and former Presidents were not. Sure, keep some Confederacy statues in museums for historic and educational purposes, but they have no place standing outside government buildings nowadays as they are a direct insult to many of the citizens living there.

Hexx wrote:

captain red dog wrote:General Lee doesn't deserve a statue. Neither do Washington or Jefferson. They owned slaves and quite a few at that. Slavery is an abomination. The fact you have painted yourself into a corner to defend statues of two slavers is absolutely incredible.

Ok at this point you're just trolling.

No one is even talking about half the issues you're trying to bring up - and you refuse to respond to what anyone is actually saying

Baiting people with antagonistic style isn't going to change that (I did particularly like your cretin remark yesterday after your whinging in the Brexitique thread)

The comment was brought up regarding the removal of a Lee statue being compared to removing statues of Jefferson and Washington. I said that's a fair point, if you remove one you should remove the others.

Is your position that their brand of slavery is somehow acceptable because they didn't fight a war to stop it? Thus their statues should be allowed to stand?

No I am not trolling. I am ideologically opposed to slavery and don't make an exception because history written by the victors might paint someone as a founding father. I think there are more productive ways to tackle these historical acts of inhumanity than removing statues, but that's another subject entirely.

captain red dog wrote:General Lee doesn't deserve a statue. Neither do Washington or Jefferson. They owned slaves and quite a few at that. Slavery is an abomination. The fact you have painted yourself into a corner to defend statues of two slavers is absolutely incredible.

Again. Washington owned slaves. Lee fought and forced men to die for the right to do so. People want the Lee statue removed as this is what he stood for and what the statue stands for: the right to own slaves. This is not the same thing that Washington statues stand for, nor is fighting for the right to oppress people based on their colour the same as once having owned slaves.

As an aside, Washington also freed his slaves.

captain red dog wrote:

Hexx wrote:

captain red dog wrote:General Lee doesn't deserve a statue. Neither do Washington or Jefferson. They owned slaves and quite a few at that. Slavery is an abomination. The fact you have painted yourself into a corner to defend statues of two slavers is absolutely incredible.

Ok at this point you're just trolling.

No one is even talking about half the issues you're trying to bring up - and you refuse to respond to what anyone is actually saying

Baiting people with antagonistic style isn't going to change that (I did particularly like your cretin remark yesterday after your whinging in the Brexitique thread)

The comment was brought up regarding the removal of a Lee statue being compared to removing statues of Jefferson and Washington. I said that's a fair point, if you remove one you should remove the others.

Is your position that their brand of slavery is somehow acceptable because they didn't fight a war to stop it? Thus their statues should be allowed to stand?

No I am not trolling. I am ideologically opposed to slavery and don't make an exception because history written by the victors might paint someone as a founding father. I think there are more productive ways to tackle these historical acts of inhumanity than removing statues, but that's another subject entirely.

Again all effort spent desperately trying to win arguements no ones making - or having with you.

You can find out my, and everyone else's it seems, position because it's been painfully and in simple terms explained you. Repeatedly.


You're ignoring and misrepresenting them to claim victory against straw men because...well that's another conversation

Harry Ola wrote:

twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/897670617109016580

Yikes.

captain red dog wrote:

Hexx wrote:

captain red dog wrote:General Lee doesn't deserve a statue. Neither do Washington or Jefferson. They owned slaves and quite a few at that. Slavery is an abomination. The fact you have painted yourself into a corner to defend statues of two slavers is absolutely incredible.

Ok at this point you're just trolling.

No one is even talking about half the issues you're trying to bring up - and you refuse to respond to what anyone is actually saying

Baiting people with antagonistic style isn't going to change that (I did particularly like your cretin remark yesterday after your whinging in the Brexitique thread)

The comment was brought up regarding the removal of a Lee statue being compared to removing statues of Jefferson and Washington. I said that's a fair point, if you remove one you should remove the others.

Is your position that their brand of slavery is somehow acceptable because they didn't fight a war to stop it? Thus their statues should be allowed to stand?

No I am not trolling. I am ideologically opposed to slavery and don't make an exception because history written by the victors might paint someone as a founding father. I think there are more productive ways to tackle these historical acts of inhumanity than removing statues, but that's another subject entirely.

Washington doesn't have a statue because of slavery. He also founded the USA and was its first President.

Lee has a statue because of a fight to keep slavery. He was also traitor to the USA.

That's the difference.