Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind

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Ecno
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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Ecno » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:55 am

Lucien wrote:I never thought I'd see so many people defending what footballers are paid. :fp:


GRCADE Believes in the free market.

However I think football is a weird business as you need your competitors. But also it has monopoly power and if it was any other business there would probably be price controls. In a normal competitive market their will substitutes either homogeneous or close to homogeneous, but in football due to the emotional tie there isn't,
any substitues either another football club or another sport, I wouldn't say this is 100% the case but it's quite close, with o substitutes this creates inelastic demand not perfectly inelastic but fairly inelastic (nominally price inelasticity both you could also say to an extent say things like income inelastic and quality inelastic) as such it allows the industry to price its goods with this in mind exploiting its monopoly power which allows for high wages, whilst other industries which share these industry qualities e.g trains, water/sewage are regulated.

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Ecno » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:58 am

Lucien wrote:
Jenko wrote:
Lucien wrote:I never thought I'd see so many people defending what footballers are paid. :fp:


It's a business. People will pay the best players they can in order to win more games which in turn will make them more money. The mor money they earn the better players they can afford. Which means they make more money. Which means they can buy better players.

I think you can see where that would lead.

I doubt that anybody here thinks it is morally right for a footballer to be payed more than a soldier for instance. But that's just how the world works.


In America, the home of money making, salary caps exist for both the NBA and NFL. Not only is this morally superior to our free market footballing system, it makes a lot of games more exciting too.


They're self imposed though through agreement by the players union and the owners association so it's a free market solution. Also NFL players on average are piad more than football players.

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Alvin Flummux
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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Alvin Flummux » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:01 pm

Those leagues also don't have a handful of super-teams and dozens of tiny ones, the playing field is a lot more level.

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bandwagon
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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by bandwagon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:07 pm

Lucien wrote:
Jenko wrote:
Lucien wrote:I never thought I'd see so many people defending what footballers are paid. :fp:


It's a business. People will pay the best players they can in order to win more games which in turn will make them more money. The mor money they earn the better players they can afford. Which means they make more money. Which means they can buy better players.

I think you can see where that would lead.

I doubt that anybody here thinks it is morally right for a footballer to be payed more than a soldier for instance. But that's just how the world works.


In America, the home of money making, salary caps exist for both the NBA and NFL. Not only is this morally superior to our free market footballing system, it makes a lot of games more exciting too.


Though I agree it makes the leagues more exciting a large reason the salary caps exist is so a bunch of billionaire owners can make large guaranteed profits each year, it's hardly morally superior.


Ecno wrote: Also NFL players on average are paid more than football players.


On average premier league players are paid batter than NFL players, not to mention they have far longer careers and guaranteed contracts.

Last edited by bandwagon on Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Irene Demova
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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Irene Demova » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:09 pm

Lucien wrote:In America, the home of money making, salary caps exist for both the NBA and NFL. Not only is this morally superior to our free market footballing system, it makes a lot of games more exciting too.

Ever watched the NBA?

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Preezy
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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Preezy » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:11 pm

It's just a bit of cop-out to have a go at footballers for earning good money, they're an easy target because football is the biggest sport in the country and has massive media coverage. Plenty of people earn more money than nurses and soldiers, why pick on footballers? Because they sleep around and have big houses and lots of nice cars? What a weak argument. They are commercial commodities in a multi-billion pound industry, they have short careers and so need to make what they can when they can. Don't forget that the vast majority of footballers (in this country at least) leave school early to follow their dream of becoming a professional, and often wouldn't have the necessary qualifications or inclination to work after they finish playing. They pay massive taxes in the UK so probably contribute more to our national coffers than most of us, I really don't get where the hate comes from. Most of us on this forum probably earn more than soldiers and nurses, is it morally wrong of us to take our monthly wages?

Also, compared to the earnings of other sports people, footballers earn comparatively modest wages. It's only the top 2 leagues in England that pay big money, and only the elite clubs in the Premiership pay the mega wages.

In my own experience I find that people who blanket-criticise football and footballers are normally the people who were gooseberry fool at playing football in school :shifty:

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by SEP » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:16 pm

So, in conclusion, the free market rules, and Sean Penn is a mentalist. And something about the Falklands.

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Lex-Man » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:17 pm

The Financial Fair Play Rules are coming in soon which should limit players wages anyway and hopefully make the leagues more competitive.

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Preezy » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:20 pm

Lucien wrote:I hope a day arrives when nobody in the WORLD can earn more than, say, £1 million a year in wages.

Why? What's so wrong with having ambition and being rewarded for being good at a job?

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by SEP » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:32 pm

Lucien wrote:Let's downsize that massive boat a footballer could have got, to a small boat, and use the money on... saving lifes?


That's a bullshit argument and you know it. People are spending money on what they want to spend it on. If they're not spending it on football tickets, they're not about to start spending it on saving lives. They're going to buy something else fun.

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by SEP » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:38 pm

Lucien wrote:Instead of a man being paid £25 million, he is paid £1 million and the rest is transferred to the state to spend.


What strawberry floating right does the state have to take that money from him? What if the Government told you you didn't need to earn more than £65 per week (the current rate of Jobseekers Allowance for over-25s), and that you should hand over any money that you earn over that?

If someone earns a fortune in a private business, they earn a fortune. It's their right to do with it what the strawberry float they please. No-one has the right to decide that they should only be allowed so much money.

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Snowcannon » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:41 pm

In the absence of any better solution, the best method to minimise inefficiency in our economy is to pay footballers etc their economic worth, not their social worth (which would ruin any economy).

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Preezy » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:42 pm

Lucien, you sir are talking out of your arse :lol: :lol:

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aayl1
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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by aayl1 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:44 pm

Lucien wrote:
Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
Lucien wrote:Let's downsize that massive boat a footballer could have got, to a small boat, and use the money on... saving lifes?


That's a bullshit argument and you know it. People are spending money on what they want to spend it on. If they're not spending it on football tickets, they're not about to start spending it on saving lives. They're going to buy something else fun.


What I mean is...

Instead of a man being paid £25 million, he is paid £1 million and the rest is transferred to the state to spend.

Or in othe words, Manchester United make 'y' amount per year, and can only pay 'x' while 'y - x' goes to the government. Like that, but across all high paying industry.


How would that work?! If the company paying him knows that 24 of that 25m are going to the state, they wouldn't pay him 25! They'd pay him 1m and keep the rest for themselves! We need more taxes for higher earners, not a pay cap.

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Photek » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:46 pm

Ecno wrote:I think we should give them back. It's time the oppressed indigenous Argentinian population should be freed from British rule.

Wait there's no indigenous Argentinian population? Well the non indigenous Argentinian population and their settlements should at least be allowed a say in who governs them. Oh there's no Argentinian population or settlement, well the current population must surely want to be reunited with Buenos Aries.

They don't, well at least the Argentinians have a historic claim having discovered the islands and put in a claim since the 18th century. Wait the country didn't exist when the islands were discovered. Well then the British must have regonised the continuing claim of the islands by the Spanish and applied them to the newly independent state of Argentina in 1816 then. Wait your telling me they didn't. Well at least the Argentinian government has only pursued its claim through peaceful means since then. Wait your telling me that they invaded the Falkland islands and caused numerous deaths but it doesn't count because it was under an old military dictatorship. Got ya, so that therefore means that any implicit actions by the 1820s British government in allowing Argentinian explorations to the islands are also really too old to be considered. Oh wait they aren't?

How about you just strawberry float off then?

:fp: ban requests for over sarcasm!

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Ecno
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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Ecno » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:58 pm

Lucien wrote:
aaronayl1 wrote:
Lucien wrote:
Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
Lucien wrote:Let's downsize that massive boat a footballer could have got, to a small boat, and use the money on... saving lifes?


That's a bullshit argument and you know it. People are spending money on what they want to spend it on. If they're not spending it on football tickets, they're not about to start spending it on saving lives. They're going to buy something else fun.


What I mean is...

Instead of a man being paid £25 million, he is paid £1 million and the rest is transferred to the state to spend.

Or in othe words, Manchester United make 'y' amount per year, and can only pay 'x' while 'y - x' goes to the government. Like that, but across all high paying industry.


How would that work?! If the company paying him knows that 24 of that 25m are going to the state, they wouldn't pay him 25! They'd pay him 1m and keep the rest for themselves! We need more taxes for higher earners, not a pay cap.


Example: (Let's imagine)

Manchester United make £500 million per year, they spend £400 million.

*A wage cap is brought in*

Manchester United make £500 million per year, they now spend £200 million. The money 'saved', through taxation, increases money going to the state.

So maybe in the short term Manchester United loses out, more teams can afford capped rate players. Sucks for them. Money will be more evenly distributed, anyone can win the league and more money goes to the government in the medium to long term.

MCN wrote:What strawberry floating right does the state have to take that money from him? What if the Government told you you didn't need to earn more than £65 per week (the current rate of Jobseekers Allowance for over-25s), and that you should hand over any money that you earn over that?


Well if the government decided that you couldn't do anything about it, could you? Difference being we're talking about a man being deprived of food on one end, and a yacht on the other.

We'll never agree, me and Lagamorph are going to go set up a better state ourselves, albeit with shitter football teams. C'mon Laga. 8-)



The Laffer curve just exploded.

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by SEP » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:59 pm

Lucien wrote:Well if the government decided that you couldn't do anything about it, could you? Difference being we're talking about a man being deprived of food on one end,


Trust me, it's perfectly possible to surivie on £65 per week. All you're getting deprived of is luxuries like video games, or TV license.

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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Lex-Man » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:00 pm

aaronayl1 wrote:
Lucien wrote:
Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
Lucien wrote:Let's downsize that massive boat a footballer could have got, to a small boat, and use the money on... saving lifes?


That's a bullshit argument and you know it. People are spending money on what they want to spend it on. If they're not spending it on football tickets, they're not about to start spending it on saving lives. They're going to buy something else fun.


What I mean is...

Instead of a man being paid £25 million, he is paid £1 million and the rest is transferred to the state to spend.

Or in othe words, Manchester United make 'y' amount per year, and can only pay 'x' while 'y - x' goes to the government. Like that, but across all high paying industry.


How would that work?! If the company paying him knows that 24 of that 25m are going to the state, they wouldn't pay him 25! They'd pay him 1m and keep the rest for themselves! We need more taxes for higher earners, not a pay cap.


They had a similar system in the 60 -70s where the tax rate climbed to around 95% for high earns so it became difficult to earn vast fortunes . The Beatles song Taxman was about this issue.


Amusement under late capitalism is the prolongation of work.
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Peter Crisp
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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by Peter Crisp » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:02 pm

I would like to see the rules about football clubs changed so that they can only spend a maximum of 50% of income on wages and 25% being allocated to the youth team.

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aayl1
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PostRe: Sean Penn appears to have lost his mind
by aayl1 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:03 pm

Lucien wrote:
aaronayl1 wrote:
Lucien wrote:
Somebody Else's Problem wrote:
Lucien wrote:Let's downsize that massive boat a footballer could have got, to a small boat, and use the money on... saving lifes?


That's a bullshit argument and you know it. People are spending money on what they want to spend it on. If they're not spending it on football tickets, they're not about to start spending it on saving lives. They're going to buy something else fun.


What I mean is...

Instead of a man being paid £25 million, he is paid £1 million and the rest is transferred to the state to spend.

Or in othe words, Manchester United make 'y' amount per year, and can only pay 'x' while 'y - x' goes to the government. Like that, but across all high paying industry.


How would that work?! If the company paying him knows that 24 of that 25m are going to the state, they wouldn't pay him 25! They'd pay him 1m and keep the rest for themselves! We need more taxes for higher earners, not a pay cap.


Example: (Let's imagine)

Manchester United make £500 million per year, they spend £400 million.

*A wage cap is brought in*

Manchester United make £500 million per year, they now spend £200 million. The money 'saved', through taxation, increases money going to the state.

So maybe in the short term Manchester United loses out, more teams can afford capped rate players. Sucks for them. Money will be more evenly distributed, anyone can win the league and more money goes to the government in the medium to long term.

MCN wrote:What strawberry floating right does the state have to take that money from him? What if the Government told you you didn't need to earn more than £65 per week (the current rate of Jobseekers Allowance for over-25s), and that you should hand over any money that you earn over that?


Well if the government decided that you couldn't do anything about it, could you? Difference being we're talking about a man being deprived of food on one end, and a yacht on the other.

We'll never agree, me and Lagamorph are going to go set up a better state ourselves, albeit with shitter football teams. C'mon Laga. 8-)


You missed my point.

Why would Manchester United keep paying this guy £500m if he won't get it?! They'd drop it down to £200m which is the max he can earn! And then they'd keep the £300m for themselves!

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