^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^

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Errkal
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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Errkal » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:58 am

Ad7 wrote:
Preezy wrote:
Ad7 wrote:Eagle one, fox two!

I understood that reference.

Independence Day, right?


Yes. And another instance of a person who can barely perform a task being given a superior craft to pilot with seemingly no problems (He goes from a simple crop spray plane to an F18). Nobody picks that to bits though.


He was a pilot in the war before wasn't he, he is only a crop duster now.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Preezy » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:59 am

Ad7 wrote:
Preezy wrote:
Ad7 wrote:Eagle one, fox two!

I understood that reference.

Independence Day, right?


Yes. And another instance of a person who can barely perform a task being given a superior craft to pilot with seemingly no problems (He goes from a simple crop spray plane to an F18). Nobody picks that to bits though.

He was also a Vietnam War pilot, don't forget.

#rememberRussell :wub:

edit: Errkal :x

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Alvin Flummux » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:16 pm

Frank wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:It's all linked.


Rey really is a Skywalker.


No, not in that way. :lol: Thematically speaking.

There are a lot of links between all three trilogies - forbidden love (Anakin/Padme, Han/Leia), the "save your loved ones" test (Anakin & Shmi, Luke & Han/Leia/Chewie/the droids, Rey & Han/Chewie/Finn) etc.

Echoes and rhymes.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Return_of_the_STAR » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:11 pm

One thing I picked up on my repeat viewing yesterday was Leia giving Chewie an over the top greeting and hug when she met him, seemed deliberate due to the complaints from her ignoring him in the force awakens.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by The Watching Artist » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:45 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:
Frank wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:It's all linked.


Rey really is a Skywalker.


No, not in that way. :lol: Thematically speaking.

There are a lot of links between all three trilogies - forbidden love (Anakin/Padme, Han/Leia), the "save your loved ones" test (Anakin & Shmi, Luke & Han/Leia/Chewie/the droids, Rey & Han/Chewie/Finn) etc.

Echoes and rhymes.

How is Han and Leia a forbidden love? :lol: Also the saved your loved ones thing doesn't work outside of Anakin and Lukes premonitions in AotC and ESB otherwise every film has that because they are all having to save each other all the time.
Tafdolphin wrote:
Preezy wrote:And another thing, Rey is too much of a (and I hate this term) Mary Sue.

This was much more an issue in TFA.

It is but its still a thing. I'd say it was mainly down to her actually doing very little in the film. She beats up Luke, beats up Snokes mates better then Kylo* (the one who has been trained in this stuff for most of his life) and then levitates a bunch of rocks with no effort. Only thing is she gets beat up by Snoke but that actually ended up feeling pointless because....... well Snoke.

*its really interesting to see how crap Kylo has got. He seems so powerful in the opening scene in TFA. Then later on can hold Rey in place. We went with the oh he was injured at the end of TFA excuse but in TLJ? Needed Rey to help him out.
Moggy wrote:All of that goes for Luke Skywalker as well.

Nah. Its very different. Luke doesn't do anything extraordinary till the end of ANH which works within his skill set and thats after he gets some training (plus moral schizophrenic support) from Obi Wan. During ANH he gets his ass kicked by raiders, cant save his family, needs Obi Wan to help him out in the cantina. Would have got crushed to death if not for his gay butler and swiss army bin. Other then that its shooting things.

You could argue that moving the light saber in ESB was out of place but that 2 (I think) years later and its something he clearly hasn't mastered. He then trains in this later and then gets his hand chopped off.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Tafdolphin » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:52 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:
*its really interesting to see how crap Kylo has got. He seems so powerful in the opening scene in TFA. Then later on can hold Rey in place. We went with the oh he was injured at the end of TFA excuse but in TLJ? Needed Rey to help him out.


This is down to your interpretation of the character from the first film. I thought TFA rather effectively portrayed him as a wannabe, someone who is nowhere near as powerful as he thinks he is and in nowhere near as much control. That was the twist in TFA. He enters the fray as your typical Vader stand-in but by the end his poorly constructed lightsabre, regular tantrums and sound beating by Rey (not to mention letting himself get shot by Chewie) were, to me, all clear indications of how much of a child he still was. A child with access to a nuclear bomb, but still a child.

That continues in TLJ. He's shown as a wounded pup being scolded by his master at the start and throughout the rest of the runtime is shown to be utterly lost in a universe he doesn't understand. After his humiliation he's immediately tasked with killing his mother, which he can't do, he's then forced into an intimate relationship with a girl, which is clearly new to him and makes him extremely uncomfortable. By the end he's so frustrated with authority he wants to burn it all down: another clear application of teenage angst. Going into the last film of the trilogy, the New Order is in the hands of a psychotic child with a deep personality disorder who's been let off the leash. That's a hell of a setup.

I genuinely think he's the most interesting villain in the Star Wars universe, beyond even Vader.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by The Watching Artist » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:14 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:
*its really interesting to see how crap Kylo has got. He seems so powerful in the opening scene in TFA. Then later on can hold Rey in place. We went with the oh he was injured at the end of TFA excuse but in TLJ? Needed Rey to help him out.


This is down to your interpretation of the character from the first film. I thought TFA rather effectively portrayed him as a wannabe, someone who is nowhere near as powerful as he thinks he is and in nowhere near as much control. That was the twist in TFA. He enters the fray as your typical Vader stand-in but by the end his poorly constructed lightsabre, regular tantrums and sound beating by Rey (not to mention letting himself get shot by Chewie) were, to me, all clear indications of how much of a child he still was. A child with access to a nuclear bomb, but still a child.

That continues in TLJ. He's shown as a wounded pup being scolded by his master at the start and throughout the rest of the runtime is shown to be utterly lost in a universe he doesn't understand. After his humiliation he's immediately tasked with killing his mother, which he can't do, he's then forced into an intimate relationship with a girl, which is clearly new to him and makes him extremely uncomfortable. By the end he's so frustrated with authority he wants to burn it all down: another clear application of teenage angst. Going into the last film of the trilogy, the New Order is in the hands of a psychotic child with a deep personality disorder who's been let off the leash. That's a hell of a setup.

I genuinely think he's the most interesting villain in the Star Wars universe, beyond even Vader.

I didn't mean so much as an overall character, he is by far the most interesting thing in this trilogy and I agree with most of that. The bit with Leia was one of the best of TLJ (immediately followed by probably the worst thing in the series :lol: ) It's more as an actual sith/jedi/magic warrior. You cant have him doing stuff with the force you've never seen anyone do (stopping a laser in mid shot and holding it whilst having a chat for example) and then having him needing help from someone with zero training (Rey getting her hands tickled doesn't count) without wondering why he isn't even trying to do the cool gooseberry fool he was before. It makes him look weaker and less dangerous then he is actually capable of being. So going into the next film I'm seeing Kylo as someone who cant even beat off a few guards let alone Rey. If he is top dog then how gooseberry fool must the Knights of Ren be?

I really wish they had built on his relationship with Snoke.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Alvin Flummux » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:23 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Frank wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:It's all linked.


Rey really is a Skywalker.


No, not in that way. :lol: Thematically speaking.

There are a lot of links between all three trilogies - forbidden love (Anakin/Padme, Han/Leia), the "save your loved ones" test (Anakin & Shmi, Luke & Han/Leia/Chewie/the droids, Rey & Han/Chewie/Finn) etc.

Echoes and rhymes.

How is Han and Leia a forbidden love? :lol: Also the saved your loved ones thing doesn't work outside of Anakin and Lukes premonitions in AotC and ESB otherwise every film has that because they are all having to save each other all the time.


Maybe "forbidden love" was the wrong choice of words, but Leia clearly didn't want to fall for Han - the scruffy-headed, nerf-herding scoundrel. It's similar thematically to how Padme and Anakin don't necessarily want to fall in love with each other either, but still it happens. Drawn together from different worlds. Thrown together by circumstance, even.

Yes, they are always saving each other, that is true. That's not quite what I was talking about, though.

Anakin faces a true test when he can no longer ignore his visions, returns to Tatooine, and ends up slaughtering a village of Tuskens in his rage, after finding Shmi dead. When Luke goes to save Han, he leaves with a similar body count, but Han still lives - but like his father, he flirted with the dark side; a battle he would fight until the very end. Rey arguably faced her test aboard the Supremacy, Snoke's flagship, when she went to save Kylo.

Every time the hero faces the test, it goes very differently.

One day, I know we'll meet again, under the Iron Sky...
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by Tafdolphin » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:26 pm

I saw his appeal to Rey for help as being much more of a "you're the only one who understands" than physically needing her help. The fight with the guards was obviously a kinetic moment rather than a narrative one (it would have been more effective if the guards had been revealed as being the Knights of Ren themselves) but I don't think one action scene takes away from his character arc.

As for not doing stuff he wasn't before...correct me if I'm wrong but no-one shot any lasers at him this time? He could have frozen the guards perhaps, but who knows maybe that takes all his concentration and he couldn't manage it whilst being attacked by a dozen elite guards. I think all that sort of stuff is nitpicky to be honest with you...Jedi/Sith powers have always served the story first and logic second. Both TFA and TLJ portrayed him as a powerful but flawed wannabe who is basically a ticking time bomb of angst and frustration.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Return_of_the_STAR » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:21 pm

One thing I noticed on the second viewing was that Snoke said he was creating the force link between Rey and Kylo but at the end they implied that they shared another link together as she boarded the falcon when they made their escape. So is their link now permanent? Can he now see her surroundings? When she was at the jedi temple he couldn’t see her surroundings, I assumed that was because of where she was rather than she was stopping him from doing so.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Frank » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:44 pm

Or is that implying that Snoke isn’t dead? :o

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by Alvin Flummux » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:51 pm

Why would Snoke Force Project an image of his own corpse onto the Supremacy for hours upon hours? It's so... pointless. :lol:

Kylo Ren as the Supreme Leader is way more interesting, anyway.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Pedz » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:43 am

More I think about it and the more I see you guys discussing it the more meh I feel about the film.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Alvin Flummux » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:01 am

It's a good film, but like any new Star Wars flick, it's going to get dissected like nothing else in the months and years following. That's a great way to ruin a good film.

The novelization should clear up a lot of questions.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Frank » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:25 am

Alvin Flummux wrote:Why would Snoke Force Project an image of his own corpse onto the Supremacy for hours upon hours? It's so... pointless. :lol:


Because JJ wants him alive.

Also who said anything about force projecting? :shifty: Didn’t they bring Maul back after being cut in half? It might not have even been him that Kylo killed.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by lex-man » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:02 am

If he is Darth Plagus they could just bring him back. He could just kill Ren and then go after Rey. I don't think it's the most interesting option but it'd make the fan boys happy.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Ad7 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:02 am

I'm happy for him to stay dead because it means less shitty cgi.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Poser » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:04 am

Pedz wrote:More I think about it and the more I see you guys discussing it the more meh I feel about the film.


I'd argue that might suggest there's an inverse correlation between over-analysis and how positively we feel about a film...

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by more heat than light » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:16 am

Ad7 wrote:I'm happy for him to stay dead because it means less shitty cgi.


So much this. People complaining that the boring evil CG monster guy is dead when they have the most interesting villain the series has ever had. :fp:

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Frank » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:26 am

I’m not really complaining, I’m just saying this trilogy so far seems to be about undoing what came before so don’t be suprised if somehow he isn’t dead :shifty:

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