^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^

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LightSamus
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by LightSamus » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:53 pm

Oh one thing I didn't mention that I really disliked - Snoke dies, okay, that's something we can get over. But the scene of him laying there, tongue hanging out of his mouth like some slapstick comedy death... really? This was supposed to be an intimidating and powerful character and his death is treated like comedy. Really didn't get that.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Godzilla » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:59 pm

I thought that Kylo read Rey's mind and that's how he knew about her folks as he said that she knew it herself.

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by Dual » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:31 pm

Them two force facetiming each other got boring fast as well. They kept having the same conversation!

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by Brerlappin » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:59 pm

I thought that was very good. Could have done without the entire Casino world subplot tho. That was utterly pointless and just dragged out the film too much. Ren stole the show tho. It was definitely his movie. Adam Driver was strawberry floating excellent in it. Actually if it had just been his scenes and Luke & Rey, id have been cool with that

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by Hexx » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:23 pm

Ah yeah there were wipe transitions where there?

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by Brerlappin » Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:57 pm

Was it just me or was the CGI way worse in this than TFA/R1? I rewatched R1 last week and I thought it looked way, way better than TLJ. The animal riding scene, and the final pod racing-esque close-ups looked dreadful

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by Godzilla » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:15 pm

Animal riding was terrible and very green screen. But that's mostly to do with the rest of it looking amazing. I thought porgs, Yoda, lizard nuns were all practical (at least for the most part) and very well done.

Space stuff was stunning and it easily the best filmed lightsabers battle in a star wars movie ever

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by darksideby182 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:46 pm

Porgs :wub:

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by Cheeky Devlin » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:15 am

Hmmm/10

Bits I loved, bits I hated. Will post more tomorrow once I’ve had time to digest it a bit more. Definitely needs a rewatch though.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by MrKirov » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:48 am

This post on ResetEra nails it for me ;

“The movie doesn't do that much so differently that it's shocking. It just does old stuff poorly, and fails to build on the foundation laid by TFA or the previous movies in any meaningful way. It has tons of pacing issues, bad dialogue, bad characters who have no chemistry with each other. It's overlong, bloated, segmented, AND is overly concerned with being subversive at the expense of having an engaging and entertaining narrative.”

A 6 or 7/10 personally.

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by SugarDave » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:56 am

A 6 or 7 seems generous if you agree with that comment.

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by MrKirov » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:21 am

Nah, it’s not a terrible film. It’s still enjoyable and would still recommend a SW fan watch it, but it’s certainly got a lot of faults - namely the ones above.

It’s more... disappointing than anything. The base structure is there and that’s what I find more infuriating.

I just feel it needs some real heavy editing and a straight removal/moving of other characters to their positions to make more sense.

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by jiggles » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:02 am

I loved it.

Some of the 1/2 star user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes are worth a read, if you want a laugh.

A lot of screaming about HOW DO YOU DROP BOMBS IN SPACE?! and PURPLE-HAIRED FEMINAZI! MORE LIKE THE LAST SJW!!!

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by Oblomov Boblomov » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:15 am

Really not sure what to think at this point. I certainly enjoyed it but nothing like how I felt when I came out of TFA. We were supposed to watch another showing later on in the evening but we didn't bother.

I need to see it again but my initial impression is that of slight disappointment.

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by Oblomov Boblomov » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:05 am

Reading through this thread and several of you have captured so many of my thoughts.

Why do I feel this way :cry: I so desperately wanted to love it!

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by Jamo3103 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:51 am

Saw it on Thursday, still don't really know how I feel about it. Rogue One and Force Awakens I both immediately loved - even if their flaws have become more apparent on re-watching - both of them immediately got their nostalgia hooks into me and I came out of the cinema feeling really good about them. I even left the prequels thinking of them in a much more positive light (although I was much younger then which was probably a factor!)

That's not to say I didn't enjoy this, there were parts I loved but I can't shake the sense of disappointment overall.

The Good
- Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were both great and after seeing them so marginalised in TFA it was good to see them in more significant roles, I really liked the conflicted Mark Hamill who'd seemingly given up on the force.
- Adam Driver's performance as Kylo Ren. I wasn't sold on him as a villain in TFA but I thought he came across much better in this and found him a really interesting villain to watch.
- The Rey/Kylo dynamic. I've seen this get a lot of criticism but I really liked their interaction, the parallels between their characters and the way they both seemed to begin to understand each other.
- Snoke early on, with his taunting and mockery of Kylo Ren and his seemingly great power seemed like they were setting up a villain who'd surpass the Emperor.
- Rey's parentage reveal. Again I've seen this critcised but I'm really glad that she turned out to be a nobody who is force sensitive, it gives the saga chance to move beyond just being about the Skywalker family.
- Some great nods to the past, particularly with R2 and the Leia hologram.
- Some of the unpredictability, I expected Kylo to turn back to the light or Rey to turn to the dark side. For them to work together and then go back to their original paths came as a surprise. Likewise I didn't expect Snoke to die.
- Visually, in terms of creature design, practical effects, settings it offered far more variety and elements which felt new when compared to TFA.

The Bad
- Snoke went from being this seemingly incredible force to being killed like a bitch, we got no backstory or anything and he felt like a totally wasted character. In retrospect there are some similarities to the Emperor, who we barely knew or saw much of in the original trilogy before similarly he was killed like a bitch. Even so, I didn't like it and it felt like a wasted opportunity.
- The pointless death of Ackbar, if he was going to die then that's fine but to kill him and barely mentioned it seemed to do a disservice to a significant character from a previous film. Why introduce Laura Dern's character? They could just as easily have given that role to Ackbar without it affecting the story whatsoever.
- A number of other new characters introduced in TFA were even more underutilised here and you had to wonder what was even the point in introducing them and wasting the talents of good actors on such minor roles. Snoke fits this category but also Phasma and Maz just seemed like a waste of time. Their presence added nothing to the story.
- Much of the Resistance plot was a waste of time and padded the story out too much, not to mention the timescales all felt completely off. Finn/Rose doing all that in the small space of time whilst fuel was running out was ridiculous. As others have said, the removal of the whole Finn/Rose subplot would have taken almost nothing away from the film (Although admittedly I did like DJ and the Casino planet). In addition to that, the whole sudden revelation that there was a hidden Rebel base just around the corner was just stupid.
- Some of the comedy fell really flat and just didn't fit, particularly the whole Snoke lying with his tongue out moment, hated that part.
- Although it was nice to see Yoda I thought he looked a bit off, although similar to Tarkin in Rogue One it became less apparent the longer he was on screen. I also felt they went a bit over the top in trying to make him like early Empire Yoda when actually the whole 'crazy' act quickly ended once he revealed who he was.
- I hated the end to Luke's story arc, the whole idea of him projecting himself across the universe and then just fading away just felt like a cop out. I wanted to see him actually be there and have a real battle with Kylo Ren, even if it had ended in his death. I'm sure he'll be back as a force ghost but it just felt like a disappointing end for his character.
- Leia's Mary Poppins moment was up there with Jar Jar as the worst thing to happen in Star Wars.
- The tone just felt a bit off compared to all the other films to date, it didn't feel like it fitted in well with the other films in the franchise to me. TFA may have been a rehash in many ways but it nailed the feel of a Star Wars film and this didn't. Using so few screen wipes and (unless I missed them) not having the phrase 'I have a bad feeling about this' or using the Wilhelm scream just felt wrong, I get they want to move the Star Wars franchise forward in different ways but those are parts that should be there.

I'm going to see it again on Sunday, I do have a feeling it will get better on a rewatch so I am looking forward to seeing it again but hard to shake the feeling of disappointment at the moment.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Brerlappin » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:15 am

Jamo3103 wrote:Saw it on Thursday, still don't really know how I feel about it. Rogue One and Force Awakens I both immediately loved - even if their flaws have become more apparent on re-watching - both of them immediately got their nostalgia hooks into me and I came out of the cinema feeling really good about them. I even left the prequels thinking of them in a much more positive light (although I was much younger then which was probably a factor!)

That's not to say I didn't enjoy this, there were parts I loved but I can't shake the sense of disappointment overall.

The Good
- Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were both great and after seeing them so marginalised in TFA it was good to see them in more significant roles, I really liked the conflicted Mark Hamill who'd seemingly given up on the force.
- Adam Driver's performance as Kylo Ren. I wasn't sold on him as a villain in TFA but I thought he came across much better in this and found him a really interesting villain to watch.
- The Rey/Kylo dynamic. I've seen this get a lot of criticism but I really liked their interaction, the parallels between their characters and the way they both seemed to begin to understand each other.
- Snoke early on, with his taunting and mockery of Kylo Ren and his seemingly great power seemed like they were setting up a villain who'd surpass the Emperor.
- Rey's parentage reveal. Again I've seen this critcised but I'm really glad that she turned out to be a nobody who is force sensitive, it gives the saga chance to move beyond just being about the Skywalker family.
- Some great nods to the past, particularly with R2 and the Leia hologram.
- Some of the unpredictability, I expected Kylo to turn back to the light or Rey to turn to the dark side. For them to work together and then go back to their original paths came as a surprise. Likewise I didn't expect Snoke to die.
- Visually, in terms of creature design, practical effects, settings it offered far more variety and elements which felt new when compared to TFA.

The Bad
- Snoke went from being this seemingly incredible force to being killed like a bitch, we got no backstory or anything and he felt like a totally wasted character. In retrospect there are some similarities to the Emperor, who we barely knew or saw much of in the original trilogy before similarly he was killed like a bitch. Even so, I didn't like it and it felt like a wasted opportunity.
- The pointless death of Ackbar, if he was going to die then that's fine but to kill him and barely mentioned it seemed to do a disservice to a significant character from a previous film. Why introduce Laura Dern's character? They could just as easily have given that role to Ackbar without it affecting the story whatsoever.
- A number of other new characters introduced in TFA were even more underutilised here and you had to wonder what was even the point in introducing them and wasting the talents of good actors on such minor roles. Snoke fits this category but also Phasma and Maz just seemed like a waste of time. Their presence added nothing to the story.
- Much of the Resistance plot was a waste of time and padded the story out too much, not to mention the timescales all felt completely off. Finn/Rose doing all that in the small space of time whilst fuel was running out was ridiculous. As others have said, the removal of the whole Finn/Rose subplot would have taken almost nothing away from the film (Although admittedly I did like DJ and the Casino planet). In addition to that, the whole sudden revelation that there was a hidden Rebel base just around the corner was just stupid.
- Some of the comedy fell really flat and just didn't fit, particularly the whole Snoke lying with his tongue out moment, hated that part.
- Although it was nice to see Yoda I thought he looked a bit off, although similar to Tarkin in Rogue One it became less apparent the longer he was on screen. I also felt they went a bit over the top in trying to make him like early Empire Yoda when actually the whole 'crazy' act quickly ended once he revealed who he was.
- I hated the end to Luke's story arc, the whole idea of him projecting himself across the universe and then just fading away just felt like a cop out. I wanted to see him actually be there and have a real battle with Kylo Ren, even if it had ended in his death. I'm sure he'll be back as a force ghost but it just felt like a disappointing end for his character.
- Leia's Mary Poppins moment was up there with Jar Jar as the worst thing to happen in Star Wars.
- The tone just felt a bit off compared to all the other films to date, it didn't feel like it fitted in well with the other films in the franchise to me. TFA may have been a rehash in many ways but it nailed the feel of a Star Wars film and this didn't. Using so few screen wipes and (unless I missed them) not having the phrase 'I have a bad feeling about this' or using the Wilhelm scream just felt wrong, I get they want to move the Star Wars franchise forward in different ways but those are parts that should be there.

I'm going to see it again on Sunday, I do have a feeling it will get better on a rewatch so I am looking forward to seeing it again but hard to shake the feeling of disappointment at the moment.



Id pretty much agree with all of this but for a couple of points. I'd say the reason behind using Admiral Holdo instead of Ackbar is because youre supposed to think Holdo is the baddie vs Poe, and I'm guessing they didn't want to set up an established good guy like Ackbar vs another established good guy in Poe. I didn't think the close up of Dead Snoke was an attempt at humour. At least if it was, it fell completely flat. I am glad hes dead tho as he wasn't particularly good and I don't like all CGI characters anyway. Also Lukes force projection I thought was excellent. The whole showdown with him and Kylo felt epic as strawberry float to me, and it seemed fitting that after literally projecting himself across the galaxy to save the remaining rebels, he would essentially burn out his own flame. Again, not to disparage the older cast members, but do we really want to see people in their 60s CGI'ed into action heavy scenes? Remember how ridiculous it looked when they CGI'ed Christopher Lee vs Yoda in Clone Wars?? So I thought that was a perfect send off for Luke.
I do agree some of the tone felt a bit off, like the new look AT-AT's weren't great, TFA updated the look of the original SW's iconic designs without ruining them, TLJ didn't do nearly as good a job. Rogue One is perfect in that respect, it looks more "Star Wars" than any film in the entire canon to me.
The opening setpiece felt very unexciting too I have to say. It wasn't until they got to Luke & Rey I felt the film started properly.

But again I do have to stress I thought the film was very good but just a bit more flawed than TFA. Sadly Star Wars gets held to an impossibly high standard, even taking into consideration just how flawed even its best movies are. TLJ is no different, its a fun but flawed movie.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Skippy » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:59 am

I'm surprised by some of the criticism of Luke's death, thought it was beautifully handled. The dual sunset :cry:

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Jamo3103 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:03 am

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade wrote:Id pretty much agree with all of this but for a couple of points. I'd say the reason behind using Admiral Holdo instead of Ackbar is because youre supposed to think Holdo is the baddie vs Poe, and I'm guessing they didn't want to set up an established good guy like Ackbar vs another established good guy in Poe. I didn't think the close up of Dead Snoke was an attempt at humour. At least if it was, it fell completely flat. I am glad hes dead tho as he wasn't particularly good and I don't like all CGI characters anyway. Also Lukes force projection I thought was excellent. The whole showdown with him and Kylo felt epic as strawberry float to me, and it seemed fitting that after literally projecting himself across the galaxy to save the remaining rebels, he would essentially burn out his own flame. Again, not to disparage the older cast members, but do we really want to see people in their 60s CGI'ed into action heavy scenes? Remember how ridiculous it looked when they CGI'ed Christopher Lee vs Yoda in Clone Wars?? So I thought that was a perfect send off for Luke.
I do agree some of the tone felt a bit off, like the new look AT-AT's weren't great, TFA updated the look of the original SW's iconic designs without ruining them, TLJ didn't do nearly as good a job. Rogue One is perfect in that respect, it looks more "Star Wars" than any film in the entire canon to me.
The opening setpiece felt very unexciting too I have to say. It wasn't until they got to Luke & Rey I felt the film started properly.

But again I do have to stress I thought the film was very good but just a bit more flawed than TFA. Sadly Star Wars gets held to an impossibly high standard, even taking into consideration just how flawed even its best movies are. TLJ is no different, its a fun but flawed movie.


I hadn't really considered that about Holdo being the bad guy vs. Poe and you're right, it wouldn't have felt right for Ackbar. I did like Holdo as a character, just a shame Ackbar didn't get the heroic send off he deserved.

I wasn't a fan of the way Snoke looked either, the gold dressing gown and him being all CGI - I just liked the concept of an ancient dark side user who had a greater power than we'd seen before. I thought that's where we were going with him but I do like the idea that Kylo in killing him off essentially achieved what Vader could never do. I think I went in anticipating we'd learn more about Snoke and for him to be killed off so abruptly surprised me, the more I think about it though the more it has parallels with the Emperor. After all we didn't learn that much about him until the prequels.

I think my main disappointment with Luke is again probably down to what my expectations were, I think it's something I'll feel more comfortable with on a rewatch. Agree on the point about CGI, we didn't need a CGI Luke flipping all over the place. Him actually being at the fight and dying at the hands of Kylo Ren as a sacrifice would have worked for me but it would have basically just been a rehash of how Obi Wan died so I get why they didn't go down that route.

Apparently the 'I've got a bad feeling about this' is in there, BB8 supposedly says it to Poe which is a different way of doing it I suppose.

I certainly did think it was a good film, fun just flawed. I think the critic reactions and my own hopes for the film probably led to heightened expectations which in turn played a part in me feeling a sense of disappointment. I do get the feeling though it will hold up better over time and particularly on a rewatch.

Skippy wrote:I'm surprised by some of the criticism of Luke's death, thought it was beautifully handled. The dual sunset :cry:


I did like that, I think my initial dislike of it was that I wanted a Luke who was an unstoppable force, it's the way I've always envisaged his character developing. Similarly I'd anticipated Snoke as an all powerful bad guy and was anticipating a battle between these two incredibly powerful force users, instead both of them were moved aside to make room for Rey and Kylo. In the long run it makes far more sense for the story, I just didn't expect it to go that way.

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PostRe: ^|SPOILERS!|^ SW: The Last Jedi Discussion thread - ^|SPOILERS!|^
by Skippy » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:22 am

Jamo3103 wrote:
Skippy wrote:I'm surprised by some of the criticism of Luke's death, thought it was beautifully handled. The dual sunset :cry:


I did like that, I think my initial dislike of it was that I wanted a Luke who was an unstoppable force, it's the way I've always envisaged his character developing. Similarly I'd anticipated Snoke as an all powerful bad guy and was anticipating a battle between these two incredibly powerful force users, instead both of them were moved aside to make room for Rey and Kylo. In the long run it makes far more sense for the story, I just didn't expect it to go that way.


Exactly, the film goes out its way to break free of these narrative constructs established by earlier films. It's not interested in people's expectations, just moving the story forward maybe not to make this particular entry something new and different, but to set up for the future films to be so. It's a transitional film for the franchise in a lot of ways.


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