Strange EU Proposal

PostStrange EU Proposal by **Christopher** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:33 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8044125.stm

The future of games development has been called into question after the EU Commission suggested developers provide a two year guarantee.

Commissioners Viviane Reding and Meglena Kuneva want to expand the EU Sales and Guarantees Directive.

Dr Richard Wilson, head of the video games developers' association Tiga, said a balance between consumers and developers was needed.

"They have to be careful not to stifle new ideas," he told the BBC.

"Consumers need good quality products - that is only reasonable - but if the legislation is too heavy-handed it could make publishers and developers very cautious.

At present, licensed software is exempt from EU legislation that forces firms to offer "a minimum 2-year guarantee on tangible movable consumer goods".

"Games takes years to develop and software teams often have to predict what new technology will be in place when the game is actually finished," said Dr Wilson.

"If there is an onus on developers to have software that is 'near perfect' then it could stifle new ideas as people could end up just playing it safe," he said.

Change

Helen Kearns, spokesperson for Meglena Kuneva, said the commissioners wanted to kick start a dialogue with the software industry.

"The current status quo, where licensed products are exempt from EU law, is unsatisfactory," she said.

At present, retailers are not obliged to give a refund on a video game that has a bug or glitch that prevents a user completing a game. If the proposals become law, this could change as users would have the right "to get a product that works with fair commercial conditions".

Ms Kearns accepted that this assumes honesty on the part of users and that the system could be abused by people playing the game for a few weeks and then taking it back with a fraudulent fault.

"On the one hand there is the risk of abuse, but on the other it's not a good enough reason to say basic consumer protection should not apply."

Not good

The Business Software Alliance, which represents many software firms, including Apple and Microsoft, said the proposals - in their current form - would not work.

In a written statement for the BBC, the BSA's director of public policy - Francisco Mingorance, said:

"Digital content is not a tangible good and should not be subject to the same liability rules as toasters. It is contractually licensed to consumers and not sold.

"These contracts are governed by civil law that provide consumers with multitude of remedies for breach of contract. We are not aware of any shortcomings of the legal frameworks with respect to digital content."

The proposals would also see an end to regional license agreements for software sold within the EU and "end the fragmentation of laws on 'private copying'".

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **Shadow** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:38 am

This'd be completely gooseberry fool.

There's no way to guarantee a game is bug free, it's actually impossible. What the strawberry float are PC developers supposed to do? There are literally an infinite number of permutations of machine parts that their game is supposed to play on.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **Codename 47** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:48 am

How many games out there actually have bugs that prevent players from completing the game?

They're right when they say devs may play it safe, just look at open world games. Even the best of them carry unfortunate bugs but who'd risk making one if this proposal passes?

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **Cats Hate Mangos** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:04 pm

suzzopher wrote:Ms Kearns accepted that this assumes honesty on the part of users and that the system could be abused by people playing the game for a few weeks and then taking it back with a fraudulent fault.

Assumptions of honesty fall apart very very quickly once gamers realise they can basically have a non stop one-off rental payment for games with a massive return date. It's one of the most "Oh Exploitable" things I've ever heard. While intentions are good, this will simply not work.

Most game retailers have a 7-10 day returns policy which is ample time to either cop onto the fact that what the consumer bought was utter tripe or to find a massively crippling bug. It has a little window of opportunity for abuse, yes, but it's significantly smaller than the proposed changes and a lot harder to pull off. If I was being a little optimistic I'd say increase that time to all game retail outlets and possibly up the policy to 14 days, but it honestly wont make much difference either way.

Corazon de Leon · PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **Corazon de Leon** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:09 pm

Cats Hate Mangos wrote:
suzzopher wrote:Ms Kearns accepted that this assumes honesty on the part of users and that the system could be abused by people playing the game for a few weeks and then taking it back with a fraudulent fault.

Assumptions of honesty fall apart very very quickly once gamers realise they can basically have a non stop one-off rental payment for games with a massive return date. It's one of the most "Oh Exploitable" things I've ever heard. While intentions are good, this will simply not work.

Most game retailers have a 7-10 day returns policy which is ample time to either cop onto the fact that what the consumer bought was utter tripe or to find a massively crippling bug. It has a little window of opportunity for abuse, yes, but it's significantly smaller than the proposed changes and a lot harder to pull off. If I was being a little optimistic I'd say increase that time to all game retail outlets and possibly up the policy to 14 days, but it honestly wont make much difference either way.

My local Game shops stopped that when they started catching bastards using it to hoover up achievement points from gooseberry fool games. Bastards. :shifty:

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **Harry Bizzle** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:18 pm

The EU need to strawberry float off and leave games alone. Or at least get someone in who knows that the bloody hell they are.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **Mr Thropwimp** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:53 pm

It'd be nice if they fixed that licensing model, where that DVD you go and buy, that has a game on it and is totally tangible, is somehow treated not as a product but a contractual obligation.

It's the one thing that buggers over the consumer more than anything else and encourages piracy, because you get the better, unrestricted product that way.

This applies best to mainstream PC games. There should be no legal remit for any software company to charge £40 for the privilege of infecting your computer with various copy-control schemes that tell your computer what software can and cannot be run, and how many times you're allowed to install the software on one combination of hardware.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **shas'la** » Fri May 15, 2009 1:18 pm

this would send EVEN MORE studio to canada and shanghai. This industry doesnt need regulation to that extent, it needs SUPPORT.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **$ilva $hadow** » Fri May 15, 2009 1:21 pm

EU strawberry float off. Nobody needs to touch the games industry except the players within the industry themselves. They've been doing fine without the EU or the government involvement so far. If you want to do anything to help them, then consult them at least. Who in the hell do they get to make these proposals? Are they on crack?

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **Mr Thropwimp** » Fri May 15, 2009 2:33 pm

If you read it properly and don't get caught up in the sensation, then the proposals are entirely reasonable. There's no basis for a 2 year guarantee, only that an existing law has them for white goods (fridges, freezers, other huge electricals that you would expect to be covered for more than just 12 months).

All that's being said is that consumers should have some sort of protection when it comes to buying games so that the existing cover takes faults inside the game into account as well as faults with the disc or packaging.

If a game is released and it is effectively broken and unplayable, then surely the customer should have every right to return that product for a refund within a short period of time from purchasing it. It should be the developer's responsibility not to release a 'perfect' game with absolutely no bugs at all, but release one that you can at least finish and enjoy. That rules out games like Big Rigs but it includes the vast majority of major titles released.

We don't know how these could take form, and I'm sure they're well aware that a poorly thought out system would be open to a lot of abuse.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **$ilva $hadow** » Fri May 15, 2009 2:40 pm

You can't regulate on how 'broken' a game is unfortunately. It's totally unworkable.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **SEP** » Fri May 15, 2009 2:43 pm

$ilva $hadow wrote:You can't regulate on how 'broken' a game is unfortunately. It's totally unworkable.

Surely it is quite easy to regulate. Is it possible to complete the game? If yes, then crack on. If no, then go back to work. I think it's to cover against things like the bug in Space Station Silicon Valley, where one of the statues you had to collect had no collision detection, so you would walk straight through it instead of collecting it. That made the game impossible to complete 100%. We're talking real, game-breaking bugs here.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **$ilva $hadow** » Fri May 15, 2009 2:44 pm

It's unworkable for a lot more reasons than just that. Something like that bug could be rectified by a patch. I'll explain later, I got lamb curry on my fingers and wanna finish this lunch.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **Mr Thropwimp** » Fri May 15, 2009 2:46 pm

$ilva $hadow wrote:It's unworkable for a lot more reasons than just that. Something like that bug could be rectified by a patch. I'll explain later, I got lamb curry on my fingers and wanna finish this lunch.

And what if you have no internet? There are no patches then.

As I said, we don't know what this will actually entail. There's no point trying to appear informed because all we know so far is that there is a proposal to offer further consumer protection.

But if we're going to play that game, maybe any such legislation will get rid of that god-awful 'finish now patch later' work ethic a lot of games companies have, where the 1.0 release is not properly tested because the developer can just go back and fix it all after the deadline. We're not QA testers after all, so we shouldn't be treated like them (while forking money out for the privilege of doing it).

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **SEP** » Fri May 15, 2009 2:46 pm

$ilva $hadow wrote:It's unworkable for a lot more reasons than just that. Something like that bug could be rectified by a patch. I'll explain later, I got lamb curry on my fingers and wanna finish this lunch.

Why should we have to wait for patches? Why should we do the testers work for them? We pay good money for these games, yet we're the ones doing a job that people would normally be paid to do. You wanna be the developer's bitch?

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **$ilva $hadow** » Fri May 15, 2009 2:51 pm

MCN wrote:
$ilva $hadow wrote:It's unworkable for a lot more reasons than just that. Something like that bug could be rectified by a patch. I'll explain later, I got lamb curry on my fingers and wanna finish this lunch.

Why should we have to wait for patches? Why should we do the testers work for them? We pay good money for these games, yet we're the ones doing a job that people would normally be paid to do. You wanna be the developer's bitch?

We pay taxes, why the should I let labour claim expenses that they are not really entitled to? You wanna be Gordons bitch?

Stop playing devils advocate.

It's not possible to regulate on the issue of bugs in a game. Sometimes a game breaking bug won't be found in the testing phase and indie developers can't afford the resources. That's why we get patches. They can't introduce proper legislation on this.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **SEP** » Fri May 15, 2009 2:55 pm

$ilva $hadow wrote:It's not possible to regulate on the issue of bugs in a game. Sometimes a game breaking bug won't be found in the testing phase and indie developers can't afford the resources. That's why we get patches. They can't introduce proper legislation on this.

If a game breaking bug that prevents the player from completing the game isn't found during testing, I'd like to know exactly what those testers have been doing. Not completing the game, certainly. Of course they can introduce legislation. Stuff the indie developers. I want working software from the day I purchase it. If they did their jobs properly, it wouldn't be an issue.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **$ilva $hadow** » Fri May 15, 2009 3:05 pm

MCN wrote:
$ilva $hadow wrote:It's not possible to regulate on the issue of bugs in a game. Sometimes a game breaking bug won't be found in the testing phase and indie developers can't afford the resources. That's why we get patches. They can't introduce proper legislation on this.

If a game breaking bug that prevents the player from completing the game isn't found during testing, I'd like to know exactly what those testers have been doing. Not completing the game, certainly. Of course they can introduce legislation. Stuff the indie developers. I want working software from the day I purchase it. If they did their jobs properly, it wouldn't be an issue.

Welcome to the real world.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **SEP** » Fri May 15, 2009 3:09 pm

$ilva $hadow wrote:
MCN wrote:
$ilva $hadow wrote:It's not possible to regulate on the issue of bugs in a game. Sometimes a game breaking bug won't be found in the testing phase and indie developers can't afford the resources. That's why we get patches. They can't introduce proper legislation on this.

If a game breaking bug that prevents the player from completing the game isn't found during testing, I'd like to know exactly what those testers have been doing. Not completing the game, certainly. Of course they can introduce legislation. Stuff the indie developers. I want working software from the day I purchase it. If they did their jobs properly, it wouldn't be an issue.

Welcome to the real world.

Just because that's the way it is now, doesn't mean it should never change. I'm all for anything that benefits the consumer. Especially those who don't connect their consoles to the internet, and are therefore unable to download patches.

PostRe: Strange EU Proposal by **Knoyleo** » Fri May 15, 2009 3:10 pm

MCN wrote:Stuff the indie developers. I want working software from the day I purchase it. If they did their jobs properly, it wouldn't be an issue.

Where's your working San Andreas mod, GTA Oop North? You'd have done all the bug testing in that by yourself would you?

Strange EU Proposal

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