Stupid question time.

Anything to do with games at all.
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Peter Crisp
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PostStupid question time.
by Peter Crisp » Sat May 26, 2018 6:08 pm

I went swimming today and while I swim my mind tends to wander (2 hours of swimming up and down a pool is less than thrilling) and I had this question I think some of you may be able to answer.
Why do graphics card manufacturers not make CPU's and vice versa?
Both items are processing units and both are way more complex than I can get my head around (which I admit isn't hard but oh well) and I get that they do different jobs but how do they differ on a manufacturing and design basis?

I realise this may seem a solidly stupid question hence the topic title but why can't Intel just decide to spend some of it's vast fortune and just blow everyone in the graphics card business out the water?

Before you moan at me for being a nerd for having such dull musings, yes I'm a nerd get over it.

Vermilion wrote:I'd rather live in Luton.
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Johnny Ryall
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Johnny Ryall » Sat May 26, 2018 6:14 pm

Uh amd

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Peter Crisp
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Peter Crisp » Sat May 26, 2018 6:15 pm

Johnny Ryall wrote:Uh amd


I forgot about them :slol: :shifty: .

I warned you it was a stupid question :shifty: .

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Errkal
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Errkal » Sat May 26, 2018 6:17 pm

Intel HD

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Johnny Ryall
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Johnny Ryall » Sat May 26, 2018 6:18 pm

Oh wow. :lol: As far as Intel and I may be wrong but I think it's as simple as "because business". Wading into a war they don't have a market in when they are the market leader in CPUs is probably a financial risk they won't take when you have Nvidia and amd already out there. It could happen though, or they could buy Nvidia like amd/ATI...

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Saint of Killers
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Saint of Killers » Sat May 26, 2018 6:18 pm

Nebulon Quadtronics.

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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by That » Sat May 26, 2018 6:20 pm

Intel and AMD both make both CPUs and GPUs. But I guess to be fair Intel GPUs aren't great, AMD could be thought of as really being "AMD + ATI", and then there are ARM and NVidia which are more specialist in the hardware they make.

The core of the question is "do you need different skills in your engineers to design a GPU vs. a CPU", and the answer to that is yes. A CPU core is built to be good at doing lots of different things one-at-a-time in quick succession, with a focus on integer arithmetic and logic operations; a GPU is built to do lots of very similar things at once, with an emphasis on floating point arithmetic. The ways CPUs and GPUs are structured are very different, and the ways you program and use them are very different as well.

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Peter Crisp
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Peter Crisp » Sat May 26, 2018 6:21 pm

Saint of Killers wrote:Nebulon Quadtronics.


Is that who's doing the innards for the new Ataribox thing?
I'm slightly more interested now as they sound super fancy.

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Peter Crisp
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Peter Crisp » Sat May 26, 2018 6:30 pm

Karl wrote:Intel and AMD both make both CPUs and GPUs. But I guess to be fair Intel GPUs aren't great, AMD could be thought of as really being "AMD + ATI", and then there are ARM and NVidia which are more specialist in the hardware they make.

The core of the question is "do you need different skills in your engineers to design a GPU vs. a CPU", and the answer to that is yes. A CPU core is built to be good at doing lots of different things one-at-a-time in quick succession, with a focus on integer arithmetic and logic operations; a GPU is built to do lots of very similar things at once, with an emphasis on floating point arithmetic. The ways CPUs and GPUs are structured are very different, and the ways you program and use them are very different as well.


Ok thanks for the explanation.
How different are we talking here? The difference between a car and a horse or just the difference between cars or even car models?

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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by That » Sat May 26, 2018 6:38 pm

Peter Crisp wrote:Ok thanks for the explanation.
How different are we talking here? The difference between a car and a horse or just the difference between cars or even car models?

I guess it's the difference between a motorbike and a lorry. They're both motor vehicles but they have very different form factors and are adapted for very different use-cases.

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Johnny Ryall
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Johnny Ryall » Sat May 26, 2018 6:42 pm

Do intel make cards? I thought they were just integrated and bad but I haven't built a machine in 6 years and stick to my nvidia fanboy stylings when I upgrade GPU.

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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by That » Sat May 26, 2018 6:48 pm

Johnny Ryall wrote:Do intel make cards? I thought they were just integrated and bad but I haven't built a machine in 6 years and stick to my nvidia fanboy stylings when I upgrade GPU.

Sorry I wasn't clear -- I meant they make their own IGPs, which I kind of counted as GPUs -- they aren't massively different to a (crappy) discrete GPU.

But funnily enough it looks like they might be smashing their way in to the discrete GPU market in 2019: https://www.pcgamer.com/early-rumors-point-to-intel-unveiling-a-discrete-graphics-card-at-ces-2019/

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Peter Crisp
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Peter Crisp » Sat May 26, 2018 6:57 pm

What with graphics cards being stupidly expensive at the moment is power pc gaming still a thing or are middle of the road cards now more than good enough and most just use those? Do games even push the technical envelope any more as Crysis once did?

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Johnny Ryall
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Johnny Ryall » Sat May 26, 2018 7:02 pm

Peter Crisp wrote:What with graphics cards being stupidly expensive at the moment is power pc gaming still a thing or are middle of the road cards now more than good enough and most just use those? Do games even push the technical envelope any more as Crysis once did?



They definitely do, if you want to chase ultra setting at 4k with a high frame rate you are going to be very poor. Unless you are made of cash I don't think it's wise to constantly chase that dragon anyway.

I'm sure I saw a digital foundry video a few months back saying the next generation of graphics is all gonna be about full ray tracing but I don't fully understand that stuff.

Found it for what its worth


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Peter Crisp
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Peter Crisp » Sat May 26, 2018 7:09 pm

I watch LTT now and then and they do things like build 8K gaming rigs and the prices are just bloody insanity.
Yeah ok they have a machine that will make the next gen refreshes look like gooseberry fool but they're down to eating Pot Noodles for the next 10 years so who's the real winner here.
I like games and power but I also want to eat something else now and then.


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coldspice
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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by coldspice » Sat May 26, 2018 9:10 pm

Nvidia's really the only company that doesn't do both to some degree (unless you consider Tegra, but they use ARM CPUs). They're not in the traditional CPU market as I expect it would be financial suicide for them to attempt to enter it unless a huge gap opens up.

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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by SEP » Sat May 26, 2018 10:01 pm

The same reason Porsche don't make lorries. They are technically capable, but that's not the market they're focussed on.

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PostRe: Stupid question time.
by Lex-Man » Sun May 27, 2018 2:10 am

Minty14 wrote:Nvidia's really the only company that doesn't do both to some degree (unless you consider Tegra, but they use ARM CPUs). They're not in the traditional CPU market as I expect it would be financial suicide for them to attempt to enter it unless a huge gap opens up.


I think they wanted to at one stage but they don't have a licence to produce x86 hardware.

https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/ne ... g-x86-chip

LAST AUGUST, WE said that Nvidia would not introduce an x86 part at the spectacularly successful Nvision show. We also said they would have to be mighty stupid to try to make one, and guess what, we were right again.

Word reached us a bit ago that Nvidia is definitely working on an x86 chip and the firm is heavily recruiting x86 engineers all over Silicon Valley.

The history behind this is here and here, and can be summarised by saying they bought an x86 team almost fully, and don't have a licence to make the parts. Given that the firm burned about every bridge imaginable with the two companies who can give them licences, Nvidia has about a zero chance of getting one.

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PostRe: RE: Re: Stupid question time.
by Death's Head » Sun May 27, 2018 10:03 am

Somebody Else's Problem wrote:The same reason Porsche don't make lorries. They are technically capable, but that's not the market they're focussed on.
British Leyland didn't get where they are today by deciding not to make both lorries and high performance cars.

Yes?
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Lex-Man
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PostRe: RE: Re: Stupid question time.
by Lex-Man » Sun May 27, 2018 10:40 am

Death's Head wrote:
Somebody Else's Problem wrote:The same reason Porsche don't make lorries. They are technically capable, but that's not the market they're focussed on.
British Leyland didn't get where they are today by deciding not to make both lorries and high performance cars.


To be fair Renault are fairly successful and make both Trucks and high performance Cars.

Amusement under late capitalism is the prolongation of work.

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