The 2017 UK General Election Thread - Voting open today from 7am - 10pm

[captain red dog]

I think Corbyn would back action if it was done properly through the UN with a multinational coalition. He has said many times that sometimes military action is required but only as a last resort. That's another one of those issues that is continually misrepresented when he is called a pacifist.

[Eighthours]

Don't forget Corbyn thinks Britian hasn't been involved in a 'just' conflict in 70 years.

Despite his talk of needing a 'deeper understanding' of the situation he's a rather simple minded ideologue.

This x infinity.

[Eighthours]

Got a source that isn't the sun?

It's just a list of bills he's voted against and abstained on, presented in this thread without any commentary from The Sun. It annoys me that I felt I had to apologise for the source. It's just a list!

[Eighthours]

I think Corbyn would back action if it was done properly through the UN with a multinational coalition. He has said many times that sometimes military action is required but only as a last resort. That's another one of those issues that is continually misrepresented when he is called a pacifist.

But in practice this is a completely disingenuous position as Russia and China will always veto any military action.

[Moggy]

1985 Updating the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1974: Gave emergency powers to police forces to quiz terror suspects travelling between Northern Ireland and Great Britain
1989 Elected Authorities (Northern Ireland) Act 1989: Law that requires candidates for election in local and Northern Ireland Assembly to declare they will never support terrorism
2000 Terrorism Act: Redefined terrorism and gave police stop and search powers
2001 Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act: Following 9/11, indefinite holding without charge of suspects who cannot be deported.
2008 Counter-Terrorism Act: Banned communication of sensitive details about Armed Forces
2013 Justice and Security Act: Allowed secret hearings in courts on issues of national security
2014 Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act: Gave police emergency access to phone and internet records

Abstained:
2003: Criminal Justice Act: Modernising the criminal justice system, allows offences to be tried by a judge sitting alone without a jury
2016 Investigatory Powers Bill: To allow the bulk interception of communications, equipment interference, subject to certain safeguards.

I would want more information on the context of the other ones (The Sun is not very reliable) but I can understand why people would vote against the ones I have left in above. Stop and search is massively controversial and so is the retaining of phone/internet records and having trials without a jury.

[Moggy]

Got a source that isn't the sun?

It's just a list of bills he's voted against and abstained on, presented in this thread without any commentary from The Sun. It annoys me that I felt I had to apologise for the source. It's just a list!

Is it just a list? It has next to it a description of what the Bills were, but how reliable is that description? Did the Bills have other aspects that The Sun has conveniently missed out?

[Grumpy David]

No matter what our foreign policy is, we would still be targets of fundamentalists.

Their end goal is that the entire world converts (or dies) to their extremist version of Islam. They're absolute in their goal.

[Preezy]

What is Corbyn's stance on the Falklands?

[captain red dog]

I think Corbyn would back action if it was done properly through the UN with a multinational coalition. He has said many times that sometimes military action is required but only as a last resort. That's another one of those issues that is continually misrepresented when he is called a pacifist.

But in practice this is a completely disingenuous position as Russia and China will always veto any military action.

I'm not sure they would actually if it was genuinely targeted towards removing IS and not about trying to topple a government. The last three conflicts we have been involved with, Syria, Libya and Iraq have all been under the guise of fighting terror but in reality have been predominantly about regime change.

Taken in the context of improving relations between UK and Russia rather than living in this 1950s red scare, Russian menace mentality that the Conservatives of May's generation were born into, you would be looking at a much wider restructuring of foreign policy.

[<]:^D]

Whoever wins we lose.

i know youre probably being flippant, but for me, theres one clear party that will leave me and my local area worse off, and it isnt Labour...

[DML]

I'm just happy that the 100 seat Tory landslide now looks impossible. The fact of the matter is that Tory manifesto is so awful, almost anything else is moot.

[Lotus]

What is Corbyn's stance on the Falklands?

I think he wanted some kinda power-sharing arrangement. Don't know if that's changed though, or if there's a direct quote. From what I remember it was one of those "sources suggest" type things.

[Lagamorph]

Whoever wins we lose.

i know youre probably being flippant, but for me, theres one clear party that will leave me and my local area worse off, and it isnt Labour...

Not being flippant at all.
Corbyn has a hard on for Hard Brexit to the point that ending freedom of movement is in the Labour manifesto, which is automatic hard Brexit.

[<]:^D]

that's an odd thing to bring up to compare the 2 parties. you think the Conservatives are going to get a less hard (oo-er) Brexit?

[DrPepperMan]

Is anyone advising Corbyn before he opens his mouth?

It is well documented from the bomber's sister that "He saw the explosives America drops on children in Syria, and he wanted revenge. Whether he got that is between him and God.” Source.

Dread to think of the damage he would do if elected

[DML]

Labour were 66/1 at the start of all this. They are now 13/2. A hung parliament is the same odds.

[Moggy]

Ok, I am bored and so have looked at the Acts the Sun published and looked at what reasonable grounds anybody might have for not supporting them. As I thought, the descriptions given by the Sun are not exactly a fair representation of what the Acts actually contained.

1984 Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act: Outlawed NI terror groups.

There are a lot of revisions to this act and so (without studying in depth), it is hard to know what Corbyn might have objected to. Some snippets from the Wikipedia page though:

Exclusion orders could be issued "as expedient" to prevent movement within the United Kingdom. Orders were issued against individuals to either prevent them entering or being in Great Britain, to exclude them from Northern Ireland, or to exclude them from the United Kingdom

In 1980, the BBC's Panorama filmed the IRA on patrol in Carrickmore. The footage was seized by police under the Prevention of Terrorism Acts following an outcry in parliament and the press, as well as Thames TV's Death on the Rock in 1988.[4] They were also used to convict Channel 4 and an independent production company over a Dispatches report in 1991 under new powers in the 1989 revision

1985 Updating the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1974: Gave emergency powers to police forces to quiz terror suspects travelling between Northern Ireland and Great Britain

See 1984.

1989 Elected Authorities (Northern Ireland) Act 1989: Law that requires candidates for election in local and Northern Ireland Assembly to declare they will never support terrorism

The Elected Authorities (Northern Ireland) Act 1989 was a law that required candidates for election in local and Northern Ireland Assembly declare they would not, by word or deed, express support for or approval of proscribed organisations or acts of terrorism (that is to say, violence for political ends).
It had the effect of disqualifying numerous candidates in the 1989 Northern Ireland local government elections, particularly 23 candidates of the Republican Sinn Féin (RSF).

1989 Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act: Banned support for the IRA and Irish National Liberation Army

See 1984.

1989 Security Service Act: Established legal basis of the UK Security Service for the first time – giving security services the function of protecting the UK from terrorism

See 1984 above.

1991 Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions): Allowed police to search sites for weapons and arms

I cannot find much on the 1991 changes to this act, but the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973 was an Act that abolished the death penalty for murder in Northern Ireland and established the Diplock courts which allowed for terrorist offences to be tried without a jury.

1996 Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act: Banned possession of items for terrorists

See 1991 above.

1998 Criminal Justice (Terrorism and Conspiracy) Act: Stricter punishment for being a member of terror group following the Omagh bombing

There is little information on this Act that is easy to read – I can’t be arsed to read the whole bloody thing.

2000 Terrorism Act: Redefined terrorism and gave police stop and search powers

Stop and search powers are massively controversial and not necessarily anything to do with terrorism.

2001 The Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order: Statutory instrument banning Al-Qa’ida in a statutory instrument, 6 months before 9/11

This act does far more than just outlaw terrorist groups. It also allows for trials without juries, stop and search powers etc.

Section 75 provided for bench trials instead of jury trials in Northern Ireland for scheduled offences, continuing the system of Diplock courts first established in 1973

2001 Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act: Following 9/11, indefinite holding without charge of suspects who cannot be deported.

Indefinite holding without charge is a civil liberties issue.

2005 Prevention of Terrorism Act: Gave the Home Secretary the power to impose control orders on terror suspects

There were a lot of civil liberties issues with this legislation. Including:

In April 2006, a High Court judge issued a declaration that section 3 of the Act was incompatible with the right to a fair trial under article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The system of control orders was described by Mr Justice Sullivan as an 'affront to justice'.[4] The Act was repealed on 14 December 2011 by section 1 of the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011.

2006 Terrorism Act: Outlawed the “glorification” of terror following 7/7 bombings

It didn’t just outlaw the “glorification” of terror, this was the legislation that Blair was defeated on due to wanting to hold people without charge for 90 days.

2008 Counter-Terrorism Act: Banned communication of sensitive details about Armed Forces

This was also the legislation that the police use to stop anybody taking photos of them.

It allowed for secret coroner inquests.

It extended how long suspects could be held for.

2011 Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act: Replaced control orders with new powers to restrict the movement of suspects who could not be prosecuted or deported

There’s not much easily found information on this one, like the one above I can’t be arsed to read the entire Bill.

2013 Justice and Security Act: Allowed secret hearings in courts on issues of national security

Without looking this one up, I can tell why people might be opposed to secret court hearings.

2014 Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act: Gave police emergency access to phone and internet records

Again, no need to look this one up, it’s obvious why people would be opposed to it.

Abstained:
2003: Criminal Justice Act: Modernising the criminal justice system, allows offences to be tried by a judge sitting alone without a jury

Again, obvious why people would be opposed.

2016 Investigatory Powers Bill: To allow the bulk interception of communications, equipment interference, subject to certain safeguards.

And again, obvious why people would be opposed.

[Hypes]

strawberry float off Moggy with your facts and reason. Eighthours wants to paint Corbyn as being anti-UK and pro-terrorism, so you'll bloody well know your place and let him

[Eighthours]

What is Corbyn's stance on the Falklands?

I think he wanted some kinda power-sharing arrangement. Don't know if that's changed though, or if there's a direct quote. From what I remember it was one of those "sources suggest" type things.

Corbyn was against the war. On power sharing, this is from an Argentinian diplomat who spoke to him:

Argentina’s outgoing ambassador to London, Alicia Castro, said the Labour leader “shares our concerns” and “he is one of ours”.

In an interview published on the Argentinian embassy’s website, Castro said Corbyn had visited the Argentinian embassy in London and was “friendly and humorous”.

“He is saying that dialogue [is] possible and that attitudes are beginning to change, that what was achieved in Northern Ireland can be achieved also here,” she said.

“His decisive leadership can guide the British public opinion to promote dialogue between the governments of the United Kingdom and Argentina.”

The Labour leader sparked controversy in a television interview last week by saying he wanted discussions on “some reasonable accommodation” with Argentina.

While saying the islanders should have an “enormous say” in any discussions on their future, he stopped short of saying they should have a veto over any new arrangements.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -argentina

[Lagamorph]

that's an odd thing to bring up to compare the 2 parties. you think the Conservatives are going to get a less hard (oo-er) Brexit?

No, but it's a lose-lose situation regardless of which one if them wins since leaving the EU in a hard Brexit is likely to have a far greater impact than anything else either of them proposes to do differently.

Not that I'm voting for Labour or the Conservatives, I'll be going with Lib Dem who held my constituency in 2010-2015.