The 2017 UK General Election Thread - Voting open today from 7am - 10pm

[Moggy]

strawberry float off Moggy with your facts and reason. Eighthours wants to paint Corbyn as being anti-UK and pro-terrorism, so you'll bloody well know your place and let him

I am not saying Corbyn isn’t pro-terrorism but I certainly don’t see any concrete evidence of it. There are plenty of reasons to have been against all of those bills without needing to have an “IRA 4 eva” tattoo.

I don’t think Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser but I think he’d probably be weak on terrorism. He’s not an ISIS supporter, but he will be the sort of lefty that thinks we should just talk and hug it out and everyone will end up loving each other. He’d shy away from confronting ISIS and would believe that love will save the day and everybody would be happy if we just held hands and sang lovely songs.

But that’s a lot different to the idea that he is the criminal mastermind behind all of the terrorism of the last 35 years.

[Moggy]

Like strawberry float is all that research and typing being lost on the previous page.

Ok, I am bored and so have looked at the Acts the Sun published and looked at what reasonable grounds anybody might have for not supporting them. As I thought, the descriptions given by the Sun are not exactly a fair representation of what the Acts actually contained.

1984 Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act: Outlawed NI terror groups.

There are a lot of revisions to this act and so (without studying in depth), it is hard to know what Corbyn might have objected to. Some snippets from the Wikipedia page though:

Exclusion orders could be issued "as expedient" to prevent movement within the United Kingdom. Orders were issued against individuals to either prevent them entering or being in Great Britain, to exclude them from Northern Ireland, or to exclude them from the United Kingdom

In 1980, the BBC's Panorama filmed the IRA on patrol in Carrickmore. The footage was seized by police under the Prevention of Terrorism Acts following an outcry in parliament and the press, as well as Thames TV's Death on the Rock in 1988.[4] They were also used to convict Channel 4 and an independent production company over a Dispatches report in 1991 under new powers in the 1989 revision

1985 Updating the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1974: Gave emergency powers to police forces to quiz terror suspects travelling between Northern Ireland and Great Britain

See 1984.

1989 Elected Authorities (Northern Ireland) Act 1989: Law that requires candidates for election in local and Northern Ireland Assembly to declare they will never support terrorism

The Elected Authorities (Northern Ireland) Act 1989 was a law that required candidates for election in local and Northern Ireland Assembly declare they would not, by word or deed, express support for or approval of proscribed organisations or acts of terrorism (that is to say, violence for political ends).
It had the effect of disqualifying numerous candidates in the 1989 Northern Ireland local government elections, particularly 23 candidates of the Republican Sinn Féin (RSF).

1989 Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act: Banned support for the IRA and Irish National Liberation Army

See 1984.

1989 Security Service Act: Established legal basis of the UK Security Service for the first time – giving security services the function of protecting the UK from terrorism

See 1984 above.

1991 Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions): Allowed police to search sites for weapons and arms

I cannot find much on the 1991 changes to this act, but the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act 1973 was an Act that abolished the death penalty for murder in Northern Ireland and established the Diplock courts which allowed for terrorist offences to be tried without a jury.

1996 Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act: Banned possession of items for terrorists

See 1991 above.

1998 Criminal Justice (Terrorism and Conspiracy) Act: Stricter punishment for being a member of terror group following the Omagh bombing

There is little information on this Act that is easy to read – I can’t be arsed to read the whole bloody thing.

2000 Terrorism Act: Redefined terrorism and gave police stop and search powers

Stop and search powers are massively controversial and not necessarily anything to do with terrorism.

2001 The Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order: Statutory instrument banning Al-Qa’ida in a statutory instrument, 6 months before 9/11

This act does far more than just outlaw terrorist groups. It also allows for trials without juries, stop and search powers etc.

Section 75 provided for bench trials instead of jury trials in Northern Ireland for scheduled offences, continuing the system of Diplock courts first established in 1973

2001 Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act: Following 9/11, indefinite holding without charge of suspects who cannot be deported.

Indefinite holding without charge is a civil liberties issue.

2005 Prevention of Terrorism Act: Gave the Home Secretary the power to impose control orders on terror suspects

There were a lot of civil liberties issues with this legislation. Including:

In April 2006, a High Court judge issued a declaration that section 3 of the Act was incompatible with the right to a fair trial under article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The system of control orders was described by Mr Justice Sullivan as an 'affront to justice'.[4] The Act was repealed on 14 December 2011 by section 1 of the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011.

2006 Terrorism Act: Outlawed the “glorification” of terror following 7/7 bombings

It didn’t just outlaw the “glorification” of terror, this was the legislation that Blair was defeated on due to wanting to hold people without charge for 90 days.

2008 Counter-Terrorism Act: Banned communication of sensitive details about Armed Forces

This was also the legislation that the police use to stop anybody taking photos of them.

It allowed for secret coroner inquests.

It extended how long suspects could be held for.

2011 Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act: Replaced control orders with new powers to restrict the movement of suspects who could not be prosecuted or deported

There’s not much easily found information on this one, like the one above I can’t be arsed to read the entire Bill.

2013 Justice and Security Act: Allowed secret hearings in courts on issues of national security

Without looking this one up, I can tell why people might be opposed to secret court hearings.

2014 Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act: Gave police emergency access to phone and internet records

Again, no need to look this one up, it’s obvious why people would be opposed to it.

Abstained:
2003: Criminal Justice Act: Modernising the criminal justice system, allows offences to be tried by a judge sitting alone without a jury

Again, obvious why people would be opposed.

2016 Investigatory Powers Bill: To allow the bulk interception of communications, equipment interference, subject to certain safeguards.

And again, obvious why people would be opposed.

[Eighthours]

strawberry float off Moggy with your facts and reason. Eighthours wants to paint Corbyn as being anti-UK and pro-terrorism, so you'll bloody well know your place and let him

I don't have to 'paint him' as being anti-UK, fella (edited as I don't think he's pro-terrorism). Check out his relationship with senior IRA figures, the number of meetings he had with them (but NEVER the other side). If you think that's all 'oooh, he just wanted to help the peace process', he voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which is really the smoking gun with all this. Whenever there is an anti-Western position to take, Jeremy will take it. Look at his chairmanship of Stop The War - look into what they don't protest (eg. anything to do with Russian aggression), as well as what they do.

I really hope that Andrew Neil explores these issues in his interview with Jeremy tonight.

[Eighthours]

But that’s a lot different to the idea that he is the criminal mastermind behind all of the terrorism of the last 35 years.

If there is one thing everyone should be able to agree on, it's that Jeremy isn't a mastermind. He'd trip over the black chair on his way to answering questions on his specialist subject: 'Why Venezuela is the shining beacon of the world.'

[Moggy]

strawberry float off Moggy with your facts and reason. Eighthours wants to paint Corbyn as being anti-UK and pro-terrorism, so you'll bloody well know your place and let him

I don't have to 'paint him' as that, fella. Check out his relationship with senior IRA figures, the number of meetings he had with them (but NEVER the other side). If you think that's all 'oooh, he just wanted to help the peace process', he voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which is really the smoking gun with all this. Whenever there is an anti-Western position to take, Jeremy will take it. Look at his chairmanship of Stop The War - look into what they don't protest (eg. anything to do with Russian aggression), as well as what they do.

I really hope that Andrew Neil explores these issues in his interview with Jeremy tonight.

Speaking in the House of Commons Jeremy Corbyn, MP for Islington North and later Labour leader, spoke to oppose the treaty saying that it ran counter to the goal of a United Ireland:


"Does the hon. Gentleman accept that some of us oppose the agreement for reasons other than those that he has given? We believe that the agreement strengthens rather than weakens the border between the six and the 26 counties, and those of us who wish to see a United Ireland oppose the agreement for that reason."

Not a smoking gun of terrorism, just continuing with his desire to see Ireland reunited.

[Moggy]

But that’s a lot different to the idea that he is the criminal mastermind behind all of the terrorism of the last 35 years.

If there is one thing everyone should be able to agree on, it's that Jeremy isn't a mastermind. He'd trip over the black chair on his way to answering questions on his specialist subject: 'Why Venezuela is the shining beacon of the world.'

So he is an IRA supporting Islamist that loves Venezuela's economy?

Come on! It's one thing to smear an opposition politician but all this is rather pathetic and desperate.

[Hypes]

But that’s a lot different to the idea that he is the criminal mastermind behind all of the terrorism of the last 35 years.

If there is one thing everyone should be able to agree on, it's that Jeremy isn't a mastermind. He'd trip over the black chair on his way to answering questions on his specialist subject: 'Why Venezuela is the shining beacon of the world.'

So he is an IRA supporting Islamist that loves Venezuela's economy?

Come on! It's one thing to smear an opposition politician but all this is rather pathetic and desperate.

Look, bud, I don't think you realise, mate, that that Eighthours doesn't like the prole scum, fella, and that whenever they get ideas of grandeur, chum, or someone wants to help them, bruv, he's there with his blessed Daily Mail, chap, to smack them right down, lad.

[Moggy]

But that’s a lot different to the idea that he is the criminal mastermind behind all of the terrorism of the last 35 years.

If there is one thing everyone should be able to agree on, it's that Jeremy isn't a mastermind. He'd trip over the black chair on his way to answering questions on his specialist subject: 'Why Venezuela is the shining beacon of the world.'

So he is an IRA supporting Islamist that loves Venezuela's economy?

Come on! It's one thing to smear an opposition politician but all this is rather pathetic and desperate.

Look, bud, I don't think you realise, mate, that that Eighthours doesn't like the prole scum, fella, and that whenever they get ideas of grandeur, chum, or someone wants to help them, bruv, he's there with his blessed Daily Mail, chap, to smack them right down, lad.

Harsh, Eighty would never use a prole word like "bruv".

I think Eighty is voting Green. Although around here the Tories can't win so he's probably hoping his vote scuppers any chance of a Labour/Lib Dem coalition getting together to stop the lunch snatcher.

[captain red dog]

I have seen nothing at all to suggest that Corbyn supports terrorism, actually reading what he has said in the past it is clear that he abhors these mindless violent acts.

He clearly supports dialogue, which is something I can get on board with. I can see the debate there with whether that would be successful with ISIS and their ideological cause and the seemless bottomless pits they go to in their methods. However, he hasn't really discussed the method to which he would tackle it, but I'd imagine he would suggest that a military response will never eradicate them and that they inevitably, at some point in the future, need to eye brought round the table.

A solution to the ISIS issue is going to be a decade, perhaps two or three, away. I can't really disagree that a military solution will not stop the problem and needs to be worked with diplomacy and efforts on a multinational scale across the region.

[Eighthours]

But that’s a lot different to the idea that he is the criminal mastermind behind all of the terrorism of the last 35 years.

If there is one thing everyone should be able to agree on, it's that Jeremy isn't a mastermind. He'd trip over the black chair on his way to answering questions on his specialist subject: 'Why Venezuela is the shining beacon of the world.'

So he is an IRA supporting Islamist that loves Venezuela's economy?

Come on! It's one thing to smear an opposition politician but all this is rather pathetic and desperate.

Look, bud, I don't think you realise, mate, that that Eighthours doesn't like the prole scum, fella, and that whenever they get ideas of grandeur, chum, or someone wants to help them, bruv, he's there with his blessed Daily Mail, chap, to smack them right down, lad.

Thinking that Jeremy Corbyn is in any way a 'prole' is the height of delusion. He's a bona fide member of the Islington elite.

[Eighthours]

But that’s a lot different to the idea that he is the criminal mastermind behind all of the terrorism of the last 35 years.

If there is one thing everyone should be able to agree on, it's that Jeremy isn't a mastermind. He'd trip over the black chair on his way to answering questions on his specialist subject: 'Why Venezuela is the shining beacon of the world.'

So he is an IRA supporting Islamist that loves Venezuela's economy?

Come on! It's one thing to smear an opposition politician but all this is rather pathetic and desperate.

Look, bud, I don't think you realise, mate, that that Eighthours doesn't like the prole scum, fella, and that whenever they get ideas of grandeur, chum, or someone wants to help them, bruv, he's there with his blessed Daily Mail, chap, to smack them right down, lad.

Harsh, Eighty would never use a prole word like "bruv".

I think Eighty is voting Green. Although around here the Tories can't win so he's probably hoping his vote scuppers any chance of a Labour/Lib Dem coalition getting together to stop the lunch snatcher.

Actually I like Thangam Debonnaire (doesn't hurt that she stood up to Jeremy) so I would have happily voted for her, but I know Molly Scott Cato (the Green candidate) professionally and personally and she's an awesome person, so she gets my vote on this occasion.

[Hypes]

But that’s a lot different to the idea that he is the criminal mastermind behind all of the terrorism of the last 35 years.

If there is one thing everyone should be able to agree on, it's that Jeremy isn't a mastermind. He'd trip over the black chair on his way to answering questions on his specialist subject: 'Why Venezuela is the shining beacon of the world.'

So he is an IRA supporting Islamist that loves Venezuela's economy?

Come on! It's one thing to smear an opposition politician but all this is rather pathetic and desperate.

Look, bud, I don't think you realise, mate, that that Eighthours doesn't like the prole scum, fella, and that whenever they get ideas of grandeur, chum, or someone wants to help them, bruv, he's there with his blessed Daily Mail, chap, to smack them right down, lad.

Thinking that Jeremy Corbyn is in any way a 'prole' is the height of delusion. He's a bona fide member of the Islington elite.

Thinking I was talking about Corbyn

[Eighthours]

I have seen nothing at all to suggest that Corbyn supports terrorism, actually reading what he has said in the past it is clear that he abhors these mindless violent acts.

Again, he invited prominent Sinn Fein/IRA people to Parliament 2 weeks after the Brighton bombings. He shared a platform with Angelo Fusco, an IRA terrorist on the run from his trial for the murder of an SAS officer. He wrote for and was heavily involved with a magazine that said: ‘Let our “Iron Lady” know this: those who live by the sword shall die by it. If she wants violence, then violence she will certainly get.’ Has he ever criticised Palestinian rockets being fired into Israel? He met Palestinian delegations many, many times but never an Israeli one.

His outrage about terrorism is pretty strawberry floating selective and there's loads of evidence out there to prove it.

[Eighthours]

But that’s a lot different to the idea that he is the criminal mastermind behind all of the terrorism of the last 35 years.

If there is one thing everyone should be able to agree on, it's that Jeremy isn't a mastermind. He'd trip over the black chair on his way to answering questions on his specialist subject: 'Why Venezuela is the shining beacon of the world.'

So he is an IRA supporting Islamist that loves Venezuela's economy?

Come on! It's one thing to smear an opposition politician but all this is rather pathetic and desperate.

Look, bud, I don't think you realise, mate, that that Eighthours doesn't like the prole scum, fella, and that whenever they get ideas of grandeur, chum, or someone wants to help them, bruv, he's there with his blessed Daily Mail, chap, to smack them right down, lad.

Thinking that Jeremy Corbyn is in any way a 'prole' is the height of delusion. He's a bona fide member of the Islington elite.

Thinking I was talking about Corbyn

Up the proles, I say.

[Alvin Flummux]

Up the proles, I say.

[Dual]

Corbyn is such a cuck.

[Denster]

I have seen nothing at all to suggest that Corbyn supports terrorism, actually reading what he has said in the past it is clear that he abhors these mindless violent acts.

Again, he invited prominent Sinn Fein/IRA people to Parliament 2 weeks after the Brighton bombings. He shared a platform with Angelo Fusco, an IRA terrorist on the run from his trial for the murder of an SAS officer. He wrote for and was heavily involved with a magazine that said: ‘Let our “Iron Lady” know this: those who live by the sword shall die by it. If she wants violence, then violence she will certainly get.’ Has he ever criticised Palestinian rockets being fired into Israel? He met Palestinian delegations many, many times but never an Israeli one.

His outrage about terrorism is pretty strawberry floating selective and there's loads of evidence out there to prove it.

THIS

[Moggy]

Mr Corbyn delivered his speech as the bigger political parties return to the campaign trail following Monday night's suicide bombing at Manchester Arena that killed 22 people, including children, and injured 116.

He pledged a "change at home and change abroad" if Labour wins power.

He said that "many experts, including professionals in our intelligence and security services, have pointed out the connections between wars that we have been involved in, or supported, or fought, in other countries and terrorism here at home".

"That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children.

"Those terrorists will forever be reviled and implacably held to account for their actions.

"But an informed understanding of the causes of terrorism is an essential part of an effective response that will protect the security of our people that fights rather than fuels terrorism."

Former MI5 chief Baroness Manningham-Buller told the Iraq Inquiry in 2010 that the 2003 invasion of Iraq had "undoubtedly increased" the terror threat to the UK and had radicalised "a few among a generation who saw our involvement in Iraq, on top of our involvement in Afghanistan, as being an attack on Islam".

Mr Corbyn, who opposed UK military intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan, and voted against strikes in Libya and Syria, said: "We must be brave enough to admit the 'war on terror' is simply not working.

"We need a smarter way to reduce the threat from countries that nurture terrorists and generate terrorism."

He added: "No government can prevent every terrorist attack. If an individual is determined enough and callous enough, sometimes they will get through.

"But the responsibility of government is to minimise that chance - to ensure the police have the resources they need, that our foreign policy reduces rather than increases the threat to this country, and that at home we never surrender the freedoms we have won and that terrorists are so determined to take away."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40053427

What an outrageous terrorism supporter!

[That]

Again, he invited prominent Sinn Fein/IRA people to Parliament 2 weeks after the Brighton bombings. He shared a platform with Angelo Fusco, an IRA terrorist on the run from his trial for the murder of an SAS officer. He wrote for and was heavily involved with a magazine that said: ‘Let our “Iron Lady” know this: those who live by the sword shall die by it. If she wants violence, then violence she will certainly get.’ Has he ever criticised Palestinian rockets being fired into Israel? He met Palestinian delegations many, many times but never an Israeli one.

His outrage about terrorism is pretty strawberry floating selective and there's loads of evidence out there to prove it.

I don't see how any of this would be evidence for the idea that he "supports terrorism" i.e. actively wants people in the UK (or, indeed, Israel) to get killed by terrorists, which is the implication the right are trying to make at the moment.

On a basic level it seems to me that he thinks talking to the 'bad guys' is a good way to resolve conflicts, so he's done that, and he thinks shooting them is a bad way to go about it, so he's protested that. Isn't that a simpler and more sensible explanation than "Despite claiming to be a pacifist his whole life, he actually really gets off on it when terrorists blow us up!"?

[That]

Mr Corbyn delivered his speech as the bigger political parties return to the campaign trail following Monday night's suicide bombing at Manchester Arena that killed 22 people, including children, and injured 116.

He pledged a "change at home and change abroad" if Labour wins power.

He said that "many experts, including professionals in our intelligence and security services, have pointed out the connections between wars that we have been involved in, or supported, or fought, in other countries and terrorism here at home".

"That assessment in no way reduces the guilt of those who attack our children.

"Those terrorists will forever be reviled and implacably held to account for their actions.

"But an informed understanding of the causes of terrorism is an essential part of an effective response that will protect the security of our people that fights rather than fuels terrorism."

Former MI5 chief Baroness Manningham-Buller told the Iraq Inquiry in 2010 that the 2003 invasion of Iraq had "undoubtedly increased" the terror threat to the UK and had radicalised "a few among a generation who saw our involvement in Iraq, on top of our involvement in Afghanistan, as being an attack on Islam".

Mr Corbyn, who opposed UK military intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan, and voted against strikes in Libya and Syria, said: "We must be brave enough to admit the 'war on terror' is simply not working.

"We need a smarter way to reduce the threat from countries that nurture terrorists and generate terrorism."

He added: "No government can prevent every terrorist attack. If an individual is determined enough and callous enough, sometimes they will get through.

"But the responsibility of government is to minimise that chance - to ensure the police have the resources they need, that our foreign policy reduces rather than increases the threat to this country, and that at home we never surrender the freedoms we have won and that terrorists are so determined to take away."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40053427

What an outrageous terrorism supporter!

(Quoted for new page because I expect people may want to discuss it)