The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC

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Skarjo
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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by Skarjo » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:02 pm

HSH28 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:Also, I never said The Darkness was a bad game. I said the gunplay was clumsy, and that without a good storyline it would be on the same shitpile of functional but dull games like TimeShift et al.


I would call those games bad. The Darkness isn't anything like them and its nothing to do with its story.

What makes games interesting is how they play, what tools they give you and the situations they give you to use them in. None of those things have to have anything to do with the story of a game.

The Darkness gave you interesting tools and well designed places to use them. The only thing of note that the story did was make the game take you to a setting that completely broke the game.


Without wanting to sound too much like an old man, I've clearly just played more games than you.

Very few games these days actually offer anything really new in terms of mechanics. Those that do (Portal, for instance, though I use that as a somewhat tongue in cheek example, given that it was elevated from 'tight, refined and well-constructed puzzler' to the ground-sweeping cult and later mainstream hit it was because of...oh yea, it's story) can only ever go so far. A good mechanic is fun for half an hour. A reason to keep using that mechanic throughout the duration of 15 hour game is what makes a functionally competent game, with an original mechanic, fantastic.

I'm bored of novel mechanics used in unimaginative ways. This could be, and I'm not bringing up this to be a dick, the key to our differing opinions on Bayonetta. You thought it was tight, complex and....all those other things you say about it. I thought it was competent and dull. It had no story, no reason to keep playing. No real reason to find out what was round the corner except for, maybe, a bigger enemy to use another dull combo on. Now compare that to the Darkness. If what you got out of it was interesting use of tentacles then, great, there's not much to say to that except possibly look at importing more Japanese games. That's not what I got out of it. I got out of it an emotional suckerpunch I didn't see coming and that spurred me to finish the game.

That's what I value in games. The way they tell stories that no other medium can.

A good story has spurred me to finish an average game in a way that good mechanics used in an average way never have.

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by Fade » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:11 pm

HSH28 wrote:
Harry Bizzle wrote:My favorite games tend to be the ones with great stories.


There aren't any games with great stories.

Stories are a linear structure by their nature. Games (even what we call linearly designed ones) are interactive, they don't mesh well.

Dude, story is what keeps people playing. You really think people would play Assassin's Credd or GTA if there was no story? It'd get insanely repetitive just driving/parkouring back and fourth for no reason, killing a few random people on the way

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by Codename 47 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:35 pm

Corazon de Leon wrote:
Later that month, record label Ipecac Recordings confirmed that Mike Patton will be returning as the voice of The Darkness.


:D :wub:


I almost missed this post among all the "stories in games" talk, but this is brilliant news. From the way they were talking a really didn't think he'd be back for the sequel :wub:

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by secretninja87 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:51 am

HSH28 wrote:
Harry Bizzle wrote:My favorite games tend to be the ones with great stories.


There aren't any games with great stories.

Stories are a linear structure by their nature. Games (even what we call linearly designed ones) are interactive, they don't mesh well.


There are so many games with great stories - Bioshock being an obvious one. Gameplay was good but not fantastic, but the story and the world created sold it for me. Those audiotapes telling the backstory, Atlus giving backstory over the radio. Andrew Ryan? All these elements made it a fantastic immersive story that i wanted to complete regardless of the mediocre shooting mechanics. It's a very linear game that told a very effective story. With a good twist as well might i add.

And that's just one example. I've just finished playing Arkham City and with all the side stories and character bios and detail all over the world i found it more immersive and story driven than any of the animated movies.

Also i realise that's off topic. What i will say is that the Darkness was a decent game with characters and a story that made it above average.

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by HSH28 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:50 am

Frank wrote:Are you trying to say that choose-your-own-adventure books don't exist? They're not a linear experience...


I'm saying none of them have great stories.

Skarjo wrote:Without wanting to sound too much like an old man, I've clearly just played more games than you.


Been playing games for the good part of 25 years, at a conservative guess I've played well over 1500 games and currently own 500+ for consoles I have setup now and another 500+ for PC. You might have played more, but not that many more.

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by Wedgie » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:19 am

The Darkness's story is what drives me to finish the game. It also made me to go out and buy one graphic novel collection book. The only flaw about the game is the awful world war section where you go out and collect the darkness guns.

That section is a complete borefest and a serious mark on the overall game. I didn't have any problems with the fiddly gun play as I got used to it. The other downer is the awful lagfest that the multiplayer is.

I don't expect this sequel to be any better than the original. I'm hoping that I'm wrong.

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PostThe Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by $ilva $hadow » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:48 am

Hugo talking complete and utter grade A bullshit again.


The gameplay mechanics in The Darkness was bloody horrendously clumsy. I played most of the game without any of the powers because it was so gooseberry fool, only the gunplay was good. Storyline was what had me immersed and kept me going.

Also Deus Ex, gooseberry fool gameplay (gunplay) but amazing story that's driven forward by the players actions.


You need to stop moving goalposts to justify your nonsense hugo.

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PostThe Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by $ilva $hadow » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:57 am

It's time people, to play - 'predict an AI'.

The object of the game? Quote yourself and then reply to it with a robot response in order to win points. Here's some below


Silva - deus ex had a great storyline that is pushed forward by the person playing.

Robocop - that's not really a storyline, that's the players choice in gameplay, ergo stories don't belong in games.


Skarjo/brer - plot devices that gets emotionally attached really adds to the story and kept me going in the game.


Hubble telescope - that's not really story, that's a set piece, ergo it's not really a story, so the game would be better without a story. A story is a book, not a plot in a videogame.




You know I thought it would be easy to come out with robot responses but I don't really know how to change goalposts or have a grip on his reasoning and logic to actually be able to imitate him :lol:

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by HSH28 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:58 am

$ilva $hadow wrote:Also Deus Ex, gooseberry fool gameplay (gunplay) but amazing story that's driven forward by the players actions.

You need to stop moving goalposts to justify your nonsense hugo.


Caught you. Deus Ex had great gameplay, the guns were supposed to be like that because it wasn't about the players skill at aiming, but levelling your character, that doesn't make the gameplay bad.

I'm not moving the goalposts, they are firmly where they always have been. Story in games isn't anywhere near as important as people think it is.

If you want to consume a story, if thats your goal, then games are the last thing you should be interested in, its absolutely the worst medium for telling a story...at least in the way games try to tell stories (like films, tv or books).

The only story in a game thats in any way relevant is the story you create as a player, most of the games you are talking about don't even allow that, they are set in telling a scripted story in the same way as other media which just doesn't fit in with how games are consumed.

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PostThe Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by $ilva $hadow » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:02 pm

Lol you didn't catch anything.

Deus ex had gooseberry fool gunplay. Other parts of gameplay which consisted of sidequests, the main quests and developing your players skills were all story based. You played the game creating your own story within the story.


Gunplay was gooseberry fool. Everyone knows that. It's actually a fact that the gunplay is gooseberry fool and using the justification that they are meant to control like that doesn't mean the gunplay mechanics weren't gooseberry fool.

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PostThe Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by $ilva $hadow » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:05 pm

I didn't complete deus ex because of the freedom or the gunplay or anything like that.

I played and completed deus ex twice because of how good the story is, how emotionally involving it was and everything else was a bonus and added so much to the storyline and the gameplay overall.

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by HSH28 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:08 pm

That argument makes no sense, its like saying the gunplay in Fallout 3 was gooseberry fool. You are judging it by something that it doesn't try to do, its like saying Rage has gooseberry fool turn based mechanics.

And the game is too narrow to truely let you create your own stories, even Fallout 3 barely scratches the surface.

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Don Ready
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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by Don Ready » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:08 pm

So is the first Darkness is worth a playthrough?

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by Dante » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:08 pm

Don Ready wrote:So is the first Darkness is worth a playthrough?


Absolutely

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by Corazon de Leon » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:10 pm

Don Ready wrote:So is the first Darkness is worth a playthrough?


Definitely. The game is a little bit clumsy but the story is strawberry floating fantastic.

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by False » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:12 pm

HSH28 wrote:That argument makes no sense, its like saying the gunplay in Fallout 3 was gooseberry fool. You are judging it by something that it doesn't try to do, its like saying Rage has gooseberry fool turn based mechanics.


Gunplay in F3 was gooseberry fool and they did try to do it. They had to fix it in New Vegas.

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by $ilva $hadow » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:15 pm

HSH28 wrote:That argument makes no sense, its like saying the gunplay in Fallout 3 was gooseberry fool. You are judging it by something that it doesn't try to do, its like saying Rage has gooseberry fool turn based mechanics.

And the game is too narrow to truely let you create your own stories, even Fallout 3 barely scratches the surface.



Fallout 3 has Vats to aid in combat and the gunplay is atrocious without it.

Deus Ex has nothing to aid in combat.




You're approaching the debate with the view of "storylines have no place in videogames, it's all about gameplay". Whereas I'm approaching the debate with the view of "storylines can add depth to any medium, including that of video games. A really good video game can always be made better with a really good storyline".

Also Fallout 3 is a bit rubbish. 50 hours spent on Fallout 3 just so I can go through the quests and explore a wasteland and it still doesn't even match up to half of what New Vegas does. Storyline can make all the difference.

So when it comes to The Darkness, which was built around a solid storyline, why would people who loved that end up choosing gunplay over storyline in the sequel?

edit: the game is too narrow to let you create your own story? I always knew robots would never be able to dream, but I augment the games story with my own little stories in Deus Ex and Fallout 3. Deus Ex was strawberry floating fantastic with the ties you had to other characters, so when they died or did something, I felt compelled to react to their actions within the story. All of that adds to gameplay.

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by HSH28 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:33 pm

$ilva $hadow wrote:You're approaching the debate with the view of "storylines have no place in videogames, it's all about gameplay". Whereas I'm approaching the debate with the view of "storylines can add depth to any medium, including that of video games. A really good video game can always be made better with a really good storyline".


I just lost my reply to this, but it basically came down to...

Story ruins interactivity and interactivity ruins story.

Which is not to say you shouldn't have setting, characters and context in a game.

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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by $ilva $hadow » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:37 pm

:lol: Story and interactivity are not mutually exclusive.

You're approaching the debate with "story and interactivity clash", whereas now I'm saying "storyline and interactivity are not mutually exclusive and don't have to clash", example? The Darkness, New Vegas, Deus Ex, Half Life 2.


Half Life is especially relevant as none of the story is forced onto you and you can gleam it from the game yourself by interacting with the scenery. The act of going up to the billboards, posters or whatever in the game and observing is the part that is interactive.

Last edited by $ilva $hadow on Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: The Darkness 2 - Autumn 2011 - PS3, 360, PC
by False » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:38 pm

Hugo is such a damn busta :lol:

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