The Work Thread

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Hime
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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Hime » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:30 pm

We do 37 hour weeks which are applied to our rotas. The rota for the role I'm in now is 12 hour day shifts, 12 hour night shifts, a week of 8 hour shifts and a week off built in.

12 hour shifts work for me as someone who commutes a reasonable distance and we benefit from lots of off days which means plenty of availability for overtime. I've just gone to town on overtime while it's available but thankfully I made sure to add a bit of time off this weekend and next week as I must be missing 2 days sleep over the past couple of weeks.

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Rocsteady
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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Rocsteady » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:05 pm

Moggy wrote:
Rocsteady wrote:Anyone know anything about employment law here?

My partner's working in a bar where they pay weekly but she hasn't managed to get a bank account set up yet for a couple of reasons. They're saying that they can't pay her until she has an account but surely they must have to offer an alternative of cash or cheque? Pretty sure it's not a legal requirement to have a bank account to be able to work.


It's not a legal requirement to have a bank account, but I doubt it's a legal requirement to pay people in cash/cheque either. It could be part of the terms of employment that you have to be paid into a bank account.

You said she hasn't signed a contract yet, does the employer even have contracts? If so, what does it say?

As far as I’m aware there are no contracts of employment there otherwise I’d imagine she would’ve been made to sign one upon starting the job.

As GG says I’m pretty sure not having a bank account doesn’t nullify the fact that you have to be paid for work. Might call the CAB tomorrow and see what they reckon.

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Green Gecko » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:41 pm

A lot of people don't understand that an implied contract or oral contract is still a contract though. It should be in writing yes but if one isn't provided that's the employers fault. And it has no effect on the law.

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Tomous
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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Tomous » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:04 pm

The place where I started on a 3 month fixed term contract, paid by the day, want to make me permanent. Problem is they want me to go onto a permanent contract straight away which will work out at significantly less money over the next 2 months because of how generous the day rate is.

They have said they don't want the permanent contract to start after the end of the fixed term contract because they aren't protected as I won't have the 3 month notice period until I move over. Which I understand, as if I say I'm going to take it, they pay me for 2 months and then I leave they're left in the lurch.

However, I don't feel like they're recognising the difference in pay and have made no offer to bridge the gap. So I think tomorrow I'm going to tell them I want to honour the initial agreement for now and will see what they come back with I guess.

I think they're hoping I'd value the permanent position enough to sacrifice the short term monetary difference but while the job is okay I wouldn't want to stay there long term so I'd only be looking at 12 months anyway.

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Green Gecko » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:23 pm

If you don't think you will enjoy the job for long, get paid more.

I honestly don't think there is any such thing as a permanent position.

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Oblomov Boblomov
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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Oblomov Boblomov » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:35 pm

Yeah I think you've come to the right decision there.

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Kezzer » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:30 am

Spare room sorted and one way ticket booked. Now the new office to look forward to on Monday :dread:

:mrgreen:

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by KingK » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:02 am

Tomous wrote:The place where I started on a 3 month fixed term contract, paid by the day, want to make me permanent. Problem is they want me to go onto a permanent contract straight away which will work out at significantly less money over the next 2 months because of how generous the day rate is.

They have said they don't want the permanent contract to start after the end of the fixed term contract because they aren't protected as I won't have the 3 month notice period until I move over. Which I understand, as if I say I'm going to take it, they pay me for 2 months and then I leave they're left in the lurch.

However, I don't feel like they're recognising the difference in pay and have made no offer to bridge the gap. So I think tomorrow I'm going to tell them I want to honour the initial agreement for now and will see what they come back with I guess.

I think they're hoping I'd value the permanent position enough to sacrifice the short term monetary difference but while the job is okay I wouldn't want to stay there long term so I'd only be looking at 12 months anyway.


Smacks of wanting your cake and eating it. And then eating theirs too.

Seriously, have a look at it from their viewpoint. Contractors are paid more on day rate to compensate them for things like paying own tax, NI, pension, no paid annual leave, lack of stability and possible termination at very short notice with no redundancy terms.

The company are offering you a permanent position that will provide security (to both parties), removes the need for you to worry about paying tax and NI directly to HMRC, will grant you 20+ paid annual leave days, and a pension. Plus depending on your employer they may offer many other benefits only available to permanent employees (e.g lower mortgage rate for staff if a bank, or flexible working, or discounted offers, etc). For that, you can expect to earn a lower gross rate (like most people) than contractors get/demand, but rest easier knowing that a 1 or 3 month notice period will guarantee you some money if they decide to terminate your employment through redundancy.

If I was them I'd be looking for some honesty from someone who was being offered a perm role when that individual knows they only want to be there for 12 months. They are making an investment in you and you should be grateful that they want to do so

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Green Gecko » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:03 pm

It seems like you're suggesting Tomous owes the company offering the permanent position something immediately in a blind sense of loyalty when he does not. And typically eschewes any kind of bargaining and negotiating position because people are desperate for work without considering that this is a thing. When we are simply talking about exchange of money in return for labour, this is foolish, honestly, and seems to be something quite unique to this country where it is considered rude and ungrateful to negotiate and consider options. That's nonsense. Some of those benefits don't exist, sound like NUS and Nectar points and others naturally come with the flexibility and choice afforded by contracting, including money aside for taking holidays, so it's a bit righteous to make him feel bad about it. Especially considering this is a query postured of curiosity about a new situation.

Regardless of an offer of employment there is an existing contract in place and it's perfectly fair to want to execute that contract as agreed until further notice is required. If the company truly wants this person then they will not shift on it. Tomous should get what he can. It was the company's idea to offer a 3 month contract and require a contracting arrangement, arguably it is their own fault for being so noncommittal in the first place. Reading between the lines here, they realise they are not really saving any money on things like national insurance and they worry as much as Tomous may or may not that he could leave at any moment. Without being weirdly concerned about the employer's feelings here, that puts Toumous in a position of their own making where he has some leverage. Tough gooseberry fool, they should have employed traditionally.

3 months notice is not backed up by statutory law at present. You can be fired for any reason without notice unless you have served for many years. There are virtually no employment rights for permanent employees anymore.

I think people trump up the value of a "permanent position" massively, but that's just my opinion and experience.

If it were me Tomous should play it by ear and put up a good performance to generate a better proposition or work the contract out, there is no need to rush into things. Yes there is the possibility that the company will hire someone else on a permanent basis but if he does not leverage his situation he'll be another dormat for the company to stipulate typically underpaid conditions, statutory holiday only and other weak benefits just to nail someone down, whether that's him or someone else - it was the client who insisted on a Ltd company contractor so that they had no liabilities! What a bunch of pansies.

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KingK
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PostRe: The Work Thread
by KingK » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:26 pm

Whilst I agree that permanent is not permanent by definition (i.e. Forever) it does grant a large degree of certainty. If the employer wants to get rid through redundancy, you will get your full notice period paid up (at least in my experiences) plus statutory rights.

A fixed term contract allows both parties the chance to see how it works out. Sounds to me that the employer likes what they see and is prepared to make an offer for him to become a full time company employee. Of course he doesn't have to accept it. But the employer can equally decide they want to cut their costs down by not using a day rate contractor and may look elsewhere.

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Oblomov Boblomov on 4 Nov 2017 wrote:We're losing 4-1 and Forest are winning 4-0. Someone pass me the strawberry floating wine.
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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Green Gecko » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:11 pm

That's all true. They didn't need to go with a Ltd company contractor as opposed to a PAYE employment though. So I think they bring that upon themselves if the contractor wants to work the contract out. It they don't like that they can terminate the contract but it would be a pretty shitty thing to do. Sadly that has happened to me due to bullshit reasons so I'm fully aware of how untenable things can be but I don't like pandering to companies that think you owe them something before even signing. Loyalty is optional and earnt, employers can show a striking degree of disloyalty but my employment history is not the best in this respect as well as being inside an institution with no money offering a gooseberry fool stick everywhere, so it's coloured by that. I sometime wish people saw themselves with more agency than they do because it's so easy to be exploited because of fear in the current climate, then again my first experience of (illegal) employment hardly gave me a great outlook.

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Tomous
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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Tomous » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:48 pm

The company have actually just agreed to let me see out the contractor element and go permanent in January which I'm pretty happy about and have agreed to.

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Oblomov Boblomov » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:45 pm

Result 8-).

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Rocsteady » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:00 am

Nice one Tomous.

I start my new remote working job on Monday and haven't heard anything from my boss in ages, it's very strange. Particularly as she's working on American time and I'm contracted on normal UK hours so she's going to have to get in touch at some point as to what exactly it is I have to do as currently I have absolutely no idea.

Was meant to be getting equipment sent out for the job so I contacted HR but they seemed to find it a little strange I expected it to come the week before beginning. Not entirely sure when a more appropriate time for it to arrive would be.

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Green Gecko » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:32 pm

Americans don't understand international post at all. They expect literally everything to be airmail, fedexed, and tracked in a few days, and not "overground" as they call it. Like the ocean isn't a thing. I bet nobody has thought of it.

So yup it'll probably show up late as express postage across the Atlantic costs like $100+ just for small things. :lol:

You may well end up doing nothing all day. Most half decent project management software accounts for time zone differences, they must have thought of that surely.

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Rocsteady » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:29 pm

The thing is the HR person I contacted is based in London and they have a couple of offices in England so I can only assume they're sending it from the UK. Was surprised at the fact she seems to think it odd I expected it this week as I can't get into their system otherwise due to their security set-up...

You may well be right, think I'd rather just be actually working though tbh - thinking about sending my boss a message thurs/fri asking if there's any specific tasks I should be doing on the Monday. Shows proactive behaviour at least I would suppose.

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Green Gecko » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:50 pm

Maybe it's a good thing, they don't expect you to even contact them until day 1.

It's been similar for me in the past. Literally an address and an email address, the company were confused when I showed up asking for someone called Greg and they were in another building. :lol:

Have you done remote work before? It's weird like that.

Half expect your boss to email you at 11am asking for a check in regardless of whether you are doing work or not or even have any work set out to do. You start to realise how much time is actually spent within companies faffing around due to disorderly management, delays etc. At least then you can physically chase someone or twiddle your thumbs or have a cup of tea. And filling that time is a struggle when you actually just want to get on with some stuff and finish at the end of the day. I can't say it was the best if I'm honest, it was hard for me because due to disabilities working in an office is horrible as well but it does ground you.

Now working for myself I just sit on my arse, nah I spend a lot of time keeping my workplace tidy (seriously I have a whole tonne of gooseberry fool like tools and material everywhere) and daydreaming about, uh, business things.

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Rocsteady » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:06 pm

Green Gecko wrote:Maybe it's a good thing, they don't expect you to even contact them until day 1.

It's been similar for me in the past. Literally an address and an email address, the company were confused when I showed up asking for someone called Greg and they were in another building. :lol:

Have you done remote work before? It's weird like that.

Half expect your boss to email you at 11am asking for a check in regardless of whether you are doing work or not or even have any work set out to do. You start to realise how much time is actually spent within companies faffing around due to disorderly management, delays etc. At least then you can physically chase someone or twiddle your thumbs or have a cup of tea. And filling that time is a struggle when you actually just want to get on with some stuff and finish at the end of the day. I can't say it was the best if I'm honest, it was hard for me because due to disabilities working in an office is horrible as well but it does ground you.

Now working for myself I just sit on my arse, nah I spend a lot of time keeping my workplace tidy and daydreaming about, uh, business things.

I've worked remotely quite a bit but it's always been freelance for certain projects - so, y'know, here's the project brief, write 5000 words. Never like this before, full time and under a long term contract.

Is it not then embarrassing as all hell though to reply at 11 being like, erm, been doing nothing. Meditating on how great your company is.

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Green Gecko » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:13 pm

It is sometimes like that. I could never quite reconcile whether I should accept that there is an hour or so of not sure what is going on and then making up an extra hour, sometimes I would work into the evening which was stupid really. I had loads of issues. Hopefully your manager is competent.

It'll be interesting to say least, but be prepared to do lots of "research" and problem inventing when the truth is someone has forgotten to manage you :lol:

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PostRe: The Work Thread
by Curls » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:17 pm

I'm getting tired of working shifts, and work have just accepted a new pay deal that means we get no premia for working weekends (ie 12 and 13 hour shifts from friday night right through to Monday morning). We've had a basic pay rise in the gross pay to cover it, but its now unfair. People who do monday to friday, earlys and lates 7-8 hour shifts (eg 0530 am to 2pm) will earn the exact same as me, where as I work 13 hour nights and many weekends.

I'll try to get moved to a different location in April when it comes in, but I'm not hopeful, problem is (well maybe not a problem) it's still the best pay for my skill set. If I wanted to move into a different profession I'd have to take a pay cut, or go live in London which I really don't want to do. We'll see how things progress and I'll make my decision on life when I return from a 4 month work placement in May. I just know that when I'm sat there on a friday night working away this time next year it'll all feel a bit like 'why the strawberry float am i here doing this?' .

Shift work is bad for my mental state anyway and I can't even go to a pilates class on a Wednesday evening i've been trying to get to for about 6 weeks now due to work. (for my posture im trying to fix it). Maybe this is the kick in the arse I need to get a nice monday to friday role, HQ is in Exeter and I like it down there, problem is, that's what everyone will be thinking.


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