The edges of VR?

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Peter Crisp
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PostThe edges of VR?
by Peter Crisp » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:08 pm

I'm starting this topic because I've seen that The Division may have a VR version and it makes me massively uncomfortable.
I know I'm old fashioned here but the characters in The Division for me are just too lifelike to kill in a VR environment and it just isn't something I'd feel in any way able to do. I can kill any number of people on screen how ever realistic they are as hey it's just screen guys but in VR it just seems like it would be just to near a murder simulator.

Am I alone in thinking this and how do you all feel about what I see as ultra realistic violence in a VR setting as I think it could put a lot of people off the whole idea which would be a huge shame.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by jawafour » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:50 pm

I think that's an interesting point, Pete. I did read somewhere (and I can't be arsed to Google it now) that maybe a new rating system could be required for VR games, due to their high level of immersion mixed with interaction by the viewer. Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable playing, say, a realistic-looking Call of Duty title in VR.

I already struggle to play stuff like Resident Evil and ZombiU because I get totally creeped out and, even looking at stuff like the new Until Dawn VR game, I know that it'd be too much for me. Wimp etc.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by Poser » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:10 pm

Ban this sick filth.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by That » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:32 pm

I think it'll definitely be easier to be "grossed out" by an experience in VR, particularly as it combines full audiovisual immersion with motion-tracked input. It removes two forms of abstraction that normally separate you from the world of a videogame: the screen, and the controller.

I don't think it will taint the art form or cause any more outrage than violent games do currently. There will be VR horror games, VR shooters, VR GTA-alikes; there'll even be VR versions of those weird Japanese rape simulators. I think I will enjoy the first two and give the latter two a miss, but that's just my own taste -- I'm sure there will be a market for every kind of experience you find in videogames today.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by NickSCFC » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:34 pm

I think photorealism will have a bigger impact in this area than VR. Either way I guess we'll find out with next-gen.

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Peter Crisp
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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by Peter Crisp » Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:02 am

NickSCFC wrote:I think photorealism will have a bigger impact in this area than VR. Either way I guess we'll find out with next-gen.


As I posted in the opening post I don't think for me any amount of photorealism on a screen will be a problem as it's a screen and as such I don't feel like I'm hurting real people.
With VR this could be a real problem.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by HSH28 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:00 am

Peter Crisp wrote:
NickSCFC wrote:I think photorealism will have a bigger impact in this area than VR. Either way I guess we'll find out with next-gen.


As I posted in the opening post I don't think for me any amount of photorealism on a screen will be a problem as it's a screen and as such I don't feel like I'm hurting real people.
With VR this could be a real problem.


Really?

I understand that VR is 'immersive' but unless you wipe my memory I'm always going to know that what I'm doing in VR is not real.

Whats more I don't yet think we are anywhere near the quality required to even come close to make it even look like the real thing in VR, let alone feel like it.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by 1cmanny1 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:29 am

HSH28 wrote:
Peter Crisp wrote:
NickSCFC wrote:I think photorealism will have a bigger impact in this area than VR. Either way I guess we'll find out with next-gen.


As I posted in the opening post I don't think for me any amount of photorealism on a screen will be a problem as it's a screen and as such I don't feel like I'm hurting real people.
With VR this could be a real problem.


Really?

I understand that VR is 'immersive' but unless you wipe my memory I'm always going to know that what I'm doing in VR is not real.

Whats more I don't yet think we are anywhere near the quality required to even come close to make it even look like the real thing in VR, let alone feel like it.


This is correct.
Even if they master the graphics and tech, you would have to hook up to my brain before I would forget I am playing a video game.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by Harry Bizzle » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:18 am

So long as I can press X at any time to have my character scream "Shaun" at the top of his lungs, no level of photorealism or VR should be a problem.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by OrangeRKN » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:50 pm

I just read an interview that referenced a study where after playing through a scenario in virtual reality the participants were more likely to save for the future because of their experience in the game. Here is an article about the same study. While searching around I also ran into this related article.

Across these simulations, we've demonstrated that either reading about a problem or watching a movie affects peoples' behavior less than having a person actually experience it virtually.


I know these are talking about the effects of VR and how it can be used for positive gains, but I do think it also raises the question of how VR experiences should be moderated, especially in violent videogames. It's not absurd to suggest that there should at least be studies into the effects of VR - it would only be prudent, knowing that VR affects people more than simply watching something on a screen.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by HSH28 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:03 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:I just read an interview that referenced a study where after playing through a scenario in virtual reality the participants were more likely to save for the future because of their experience in the game. Here is an article about the same study. While searching around I also ran into this related article.

Across these simulations, we've demonstrated that either reading about a problem or watching a movie affects peoples' behavior less than having a person actually experience it virtually.


I know these are talking about the effects of VR and how it can be used for positive gains, but I do think it also raises the question of how VR experiences should be moderated, especially in violent videogames. It's not absurd to suggest that there should at least be studies into the effects of VR - it would only be prudent, knowing that VR affects people more than simply watching something on a screen.


I'd be a bit suspicious of any studies like that to be honest. While you might be able to draw the conclusion that VR being a new experience has more of an impact initially than other mediums for getting information across, I'd find it hard to believe in any study that suggested any long term change in behaviour due to experiencing VR, in fact if the study was done again when VR has become more common place, I'd actually suggest its likely to have lost any initial impact it might have.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by OrangeRKN » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:02 am

It could well be the case, but we don't currently have that evidence so we should make decisions based off what we currently do know. Immersive VR is a largely unexplored technology and it is sensible to consider all ethical aspects, as we should with any new technology that impacts our lives. It would be irresponsible to just say "I'm sure it will be fine" without having any evidence to back that up.

I'm super excited for VR and can't wait to dive into the games - I'll likely be buying the PSVR as soon after release as I can. But I do think it's important that the psychological effects of VR are explored because really, we don't know how it could affect people.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by Green Gecko » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:35 am

Until video games accurately replicate the conscious decision of actually killing a real person, that is to say not just the act of killing but the reality of ending a life, holding a monstrously heavy, loud and high recoil murder machine such as an assault rifle, no it is not approximating real life at all.

From a psychoanalysis perspective, even a child looking in a mirror quickly learns that their reflection is not real. Once an individual is aware something is not real, regardless of a technical or scientific understanding of the apparatus (such as a VR headset), they cannot "unlearn" it unless they are experiencing something already a risk factor such as psychotic delusions (such individuals are more likely to cause harm to themselves or others although not by much, they are not necessarily sociopathic or suicidal). To be aware of their own existence and personality as an abstract concept assumed automatically most of the time is a fundamental part of their id; that is what it means to be sentient. This way they can never be detached in any reasonable frame of experience from what they do in a virtual scenario and what is actually happening, to do so would be a serious breakdown of the person's experience of reality and I'm not convinced a game can cause that, especially when games carry inherently unrealistic and fantastical themes, for that is their purpose as escapism and entrainment. Basically, a hyper realistic murder simulator would be simply boring, if not abhorrent to a traditionally moral person, so there would be little appeal to become fully immersed in it, if that is possible.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by HSH28 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:31 am

OrangeRakoon wrote:It could well be the case, but we don't currently have that evidence so we should make decisions based off what we currently do know. Immersive VR is a largely unexplored technology and it is sensible to consider all ethical aspects, as we should with any new technology that impacts our lives. It would be irresponsible to just say "I'm sure it will be fine" without having any evidence to back that up.


I don't agree with that at all.

I think with something like this its better to take the opposite point of view really, unless there is something seriously obviously dangerous (say it came with an unknown drug that heightened the experience) then its irresponsible to suggest that you need more evidence to back up a new technology's safeness to use.

Just use a bit (a tiny little bit) of common sense when it comes to something like this. There's nothing really new about any of the technologies that go into making VR, people have been using VR systems for years without any serious issues reported.

I think its dangerous to be suggesting that we need studies into how VR might negatively effect someone when there's no real reason to suspect it is actually really different to things that already exist.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by Moggy » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:46 am

This will no doubt be the latest in a long line of video game panics. "OMG Mortal Kombat has PHOTOREAL characters and you can RIP OUT SPINES!", "GTA is a MURDER simulator!", etc. And in 10 years time we will look back and laugh.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by OrangeRKN » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:39 am

HSH28 wrote:I think with something like this its better to take the opposite point of view really, unless there is something seriously obviously dangerous (say it came with an unknown drug that heightened the experience) then its irresponsible to suggest that you need more evidence to back up a new technology's safeness to use.

Just use a bit (a tiny little bit) of common sense when it comes to something like this. There's nothing really new about any of the technologies that go into making VR, people have been using VR systems for years without any serious issues reported.

I think its dangerous to be suggesting that we need studies into how VR might negatively effect someone when there's no real reason to suspect it is actually really different to things that already exist.


I'm not suggesting that VR shouldn't be allowed, only that it would be prudent to study what effects it can have. I don't see at all what can be dangerous about becoming more informed. There is also reason to suspect it is different to things that already exist - see those studies I linked to.

The use of immersive VR technology is new. VR has been used for years in limited capacities but the technology is clearly only now reaching the point of being both immersive and widely accessible - that is obvious.

It's really not a for VR or against VR argument, so I hope you don't misconstrue it as such.

Moggy wrote:This will no doubt be the latest in a long line of video game panics. "OMG Mortal Kombat has PHOTOREAL characters and you can RIP OUT SPINES!", "GTA is a MURDER simulator!", etc. And in 10 years time we will look back and laugh.


The rhetoric is unhelpful and we know it to be wrong - but we know it to be wrong because there have been scientific studies into the effects of violence in videogames. We can look back and laugh partly because the reaction was over the top and ridiculous, but also because we do so from a place of understanding.

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by Herdanos » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:57 pm

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by Fade » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:03 pm

I'll happily murder people.

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Moggy
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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by Moggy » Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:08 pm

Fade wrote:I'll happily murder people.


And if you can't you can always just rage quit.

;)

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PostRe: The edges of VR?
by HSH28 » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:08 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:I don't see at all what can be dangerous about becoming more informed.


To be clear I don't trust any studies like this whatever they say, I think its far too easy to manipulate results and even if they aren't manipulated its far too difficult to pin down any particular reasons for whatever results are gathered.


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