Brexit

“It would spell the end of Britain being at the heart of international defence and security at a time when the world faces an unprecedented terrorist threat.”

Er... but we aren't at the heart of international defence and security any more. By choice. Popular opinion is dead set against military intervention.

Hadn't heard of that before, I'm with moggy in somewhat doubting the veracity of that piece from the Express. Must be piss easy to write for them at least, couple paragraphs of text then just pull quotes from rent a mouth eurosceptics.

It would also make no sense. Why would the EU want to give up two member nation seats on the security council so that they could have one seat?

Even if the UK and France did give up their seats, I don't think they could just say "We're giving ours to the EU now"
I'd imagine the other permanent members would have final say, and Russia will almost certainly respond with "strawberry float off"

I hadn't really considered this until now, but I wonder how many people know the difference between "Europe" and the "European Union".

Those typically in favour of remaining on the sinking ship are usually quite happy to deliberately confuse the two.

"Love Europe, hate the EU."

Grumpy David wrote:Those typically in favour of remaining on the sinking ship are usually quite happy to deliberately confuse the two.

"Love Europe, hate the EU."

Funny because you seem to do the same an awful lot despite having the opposite opinion

Irene Demova wrote:

Grumpy David wrote:Those typically in favour of remaining on the sinking ship are usually quite happy to deliberately confuse the two.

"Love Europe, hate the EU."

Funny because you seem to do the same an awful lot despite having the opposite opinion

I never mix the two up, it's a pet peeve of mine when people do so (knowingly or unknowingly). You must be thinking of someone else.

Grumpy David wrote:Those typically in favour of remaining on the sinking ship are usually quite happy to deliberately confuse the two.

"Love Europe, hate the EU."

Really? It is usually the anti-EU people who get a little confused, for example see all the anti-EU moaning whenever anything happens at the European Court of Human Rights.

Frank wrote:The EU is the reason behind that dreadful little "this website uses cookies are you okay with that" pop-up warning on EVERY WEBSITE.

I can't forgive them for that.

Here's an extension that blocks those.

We'll not be leaving the EU for a loooong time. The corelation between UKIP and leaving the EU will make a lot pf peoples minds up before they look at the facts.

"Ah, UKIP want to leave the EU. I'll be voting to stay"

Ministers 'free to campaign for both sides on EU vote'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35230959

David Cameron is to allow ministers to campaign for either side in the referendum once a deal is reached on the UK's relationship with the EU.

Right decision. Wouldn't have made sense to do anything else.

The miserable little compromise of renegotiation will not be sufficient to persuade people to stay, let alone Tories who want out regardless of the outcome.

Grumpy David wrote:Right decision.

I agree with you

Grumpy David wrote:Wouldn't have been made sense to do anything else.

Wait, what?

Grumpy David wrote:The miserable little compromise of renegotiation will not be sufficient to persuade people to stay

Let's see.

I agree as well. MPs should be voting/campaigning in line with their constituents wishes or at least in line with their own views, not just doing what the party tells them. That of course makes parties irrelevant which is also fine with me.

Grumpy David wrote:Ministers 'free to campaign for both sides on EU vote'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35230959

David Cameron is to allow ministers to campaign for either side in the referendum once a deal is reached on the UK's relationship with the EU.

Right decision. Wouldn't have been made sense to do anything else.

The miserable little compromise of renegotiation will not be sufficient to persuade people to stay, let alone Tories who want out regardless of the outcome.

I wish I could be as confident about this as you. I fear all the stops will be pulled out by our (imo) hopelessly pro-EU mainstream media to sway a gullible, uninformed public towards remaining within the EU. I also don't have much faith in a bickering, partisan anti-EU side who can't even agree to talk to each other, let alone present a coherent argument to the public. I suspect (and I really hope I'm wrong) that the pro-EU factions will win this almost by default - they won't have to bother going through the arguments, explaining the facts. People are frightened of genuinely radical change - and it's very easy to frighten them back towards political inertia when they're poorly informed about the alternatives by people who have little political interest in educating them.

I hope I'm wrong. I fear I'm not.

The stay in campaign will use the full force of the media to frighten people to vote to stay. I'm utterly convinced of that. The leave campaign doesn't stand a chance as the media either ignore or are largely hostile to most of them.

Cal wrote:a gullible, uninformed public towards remaining within the EU.

Herein lies the arrogance of your argument; the assumption that those who disagree with you must be uninformed.

354 Dan.s until Christmas! wrote:

Cal wrote:a gullible, uninformed public towards remaining within the EU.

Herein lies the arrogance of your argument; the assumption that those who disagree with you must be uninformed.

No, that's your interpretation, Dan, not what I actually said. I didn't suggest that anyone who disagrees with me is gullible; I suggested most people, regardless of their views, are gullible to the messaging of the media. Now, I'm prepared to accept I could be wrong about that - so let's stick with what I actually say, not what you choose to say I've said.

Cal wrote:I suggested most people, regardless of their views, are gullible to the messaging of the media.

Boy oh boy, the irony in this statement is amazing.