Brexit

jawafour wrote:I don't recall the government suggesting that German car manufacturers would force a trade agreement?

Ignoring Leavers that said it during campaign - e.g. here (forgive me BBC is blocked at work, so this is best I could find. I think it's the right one but if not shout and I'll try and find others)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/25061701.pdf

I suggest this is very early days and that most of the tidbits we have heard are speculation. I'm not blind to evidence but much of what we have heard is speculation and paper-talk.

None of the things I've posted are speculation and paper-talk though are they but public briefings, statements, papers, positions or facts.

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jawafour wrote:That's a good shout, Hexx. It's clear that David Davis did say that on the Andrew Marr show. I suspect that big business will want some sort of trade agreement as, for some industries and services, the UK is a pretty big chunk of their sales. Whether the governements will share their manufacturers desires - publicly or privately - is another matter!

Ah good - it's an ok link then?

German industry already shared its thoughts publically

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ver-brexit

(Unless you want to speculate that it's all a lie and double bluff )

So it's a small-ish thing in the BIG picture - but it's yet another instance that did/will invariably prompt Group A (Remainers, who will suffer due to leavers) to say to group B (Leavers, who ignored warnings) - "Told you so" (with an implicit, or explicit, numskull)

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jawafour wrote:

Hexx wrote:...German industry already shared its thoughts publically

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ver-brexit
...

Yeah, another decent spot, Hexx - although I wouldn't expect any industry body to say anything different at this stage! The deal will be cut away from news agencies and without coverage, whilst publicly the papers will report all sorts of things. I anticipate a drawn-out discussion process that will rumble on until very shortly before any deadline falls. Both parties will want some form of agreement, whilst neither will want to be seen to lose face. I guess it's up to us to see through the smoke and mirrors!

Yeah but hasn't your position moved from

"Pfft. We need to focus on facts, not the speculations and paper talk"

"Pfft. Who cares what they've said on public record, let's speculate what's happening behind the scenes"



The fact is that based on all available evidence - negotiations have been going disastrous for the UK, and it's posturing bravodo is being shown to be empty. You can believe that behind the scenes it's somehow going massively differently - but that's up to you.


Sidenote: How do you feel about the UKs proposed solution of the Irish border (land based, with lots and lots of cameras) compared to Irelands (and the EU?) of nautical?

jawafour wrote:

Hexx wrote:...German industry already shared its thoughts publically

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ver-brexit
...

Yeah, another decent spot, Hexx - although I wouldn't expect any industry body to say anything different at this stage! The deal will be cut away from news agencies and without coverage, whilst publicly the papers will report all sorts of things. I anticipate a drawn-out discussion process that will rumble on until very shortly before any deadline falls. Both parties will want some form of agreement, whilst neither will want to be seen to lose face. I guess it's up to us to see through the smoke and mirrors!

Exactly. Take away the smoke and mirrors, and look at it for what it is, and you will see its all absolute nonsense.

A government that has clearly failed to restructure the country (placing austerity measures against it) proposes leaving a successful if imperfect treaty without proposing an alternative or any real plan. Everyone votes for them to do that. All actions still show they have no plan or alternative, yet we press on regardless, all because Cameron felt he needed to include a vote to stop his party bleeding votes. In the meanwhile, major figures involved in the negotiations claim we need a 'transitionary period' to avoid a cliff-edge.

Now surely, we can all agree that those are facts. That is the situation we find ourselves in.

I don't understand why Labour is not getting behind single market and customs union membership. They cannot afford to implement any of their spending plans without minimising the economic hit of Brexit.

Meep wrote:I don't understand why Labour is not getting behind single market and customs union membership. They cannot afford to implement any of their spending plans without minimising the economic hit of Brexit.

Because Corbyn is a monumental bell.

Errkal wrote:

Meep wrote:I don't understand why Labour is not getting behind single market and customs union membership. They cannot afford to implement any of their spending plans without minimising the economic hit of Brexit.

Because Corbyn is a monumental bell.

I get the feeling that the majority of labour MPs would prefer this however as long as Corbyn is leader it's not going to happen.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Errkal wrote:

Meep wrote:I don't understand why Labour is not getting behind single market and customs union membership. They cannot afford to implement any of their spending plans without minimising the economic hit of Brexit.

Because Corbyn is a monumental bell.

I get the feeling that the majority of labour MPs would prefer this however as long as Corbyn is leader it's not going to happen.

The majority of Labour MPs would like to Remain!

They really ought to force his hand at the conference.

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Which way did you vote in the referendum Jawa?

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jawafour wrote:

Moggy wrote:Which way did you vote in the referendum Jawa?

I'm comfortable to have a chat about politics, Moggy, but I never reveal who I have voted for in any electoral vote or referendum. I will say that I'm not one for sticking with a particular party, though - I make my decision afresh each time.

This isn't about a political party though.

It's hard to have a conversation like this with somebody who is just sitting on the middle of the fence and refusing to lean either way.

Like it or not, this is a massively polarising issue - it's not something you can debate while saying "I can see both sides!".

Jawa, you can't be THAT pedestrian.

Moggy wrote:

jawafour wrote:

Moggy wrote:Which way did you vote in the referendum Jawa?

I'm comfortable to have a chat about politics, Moggy, but I never reveal who I have voted for in any electoral vote or referendum. I will say that I'm not one for sticking with a particular party, though - I make my decision afresh each time.

This isn't about a political party though.

It's hard to have a conversation like this with somebody who is just sitting on the middle of the fence and refusing to lean either way.

Like it or not, this is a massively polarising issue - it's not something you can debate while saying "I can see both sides!".

It's polarising at a national level, but surely you can imagine there were people who were genuinely torn over how to vote?

Knoyleo wrote:

Moggy wrote:

jawafour wrote:

Moggy wrote:Which way did you vote in the referendum Jawa?

I'm comfortable to have a chat about politics, Moggy, but I never reveal who I have voted for in any electoral vote or referendum. I will say that I'm not one for sticking with a particular party, though - I make my decision afresh each time.

This isn't about a political party though.

It's hard to have a conversation like this with somebody who is just sitting on the middle of the fence and refusing to lean either way.

Like it or not, this is a massively polarising issue - it's not something you can debate while saying "I can see both sides!".

It's polarising at a national level, but surely you can imagine there were people who were genuinely torn over how to vote?

Indeed, I found it very difficult to cast my vote and even now i can see the argument to both sides. I personally thing there are a lot more benefits to staying in, certainly in the short term but i can see positives to coming out as well.

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jawafour wrote:

Moggy wrote:...It's hard to have a conversation like this with somebody who is just sitting on the middle of the fence and refusing to lean either way...

I'd have to disagree on that point, Moggy. I wonder if - and this is only a feeling from reading through the thread - some folk may be seeking to "prove" that people who voted the opposite to them were "wrong"? For me, I was pretty comfortable with either outcome in the referendum; there were aspects that I liked and disliked for both options.

I feel that I can join in the discussion in terms of sharing my views on these things without having to be a fervent supporter of either option. The points that I have gotten involved with so far - such as UK gaining the ability to be fully responsible for the laws of its countries, and for beng able to determine its own trade deals with countries world-wide - I am in favour of.

You can disagree of course, but how can you debate somebody who doesn't seem to care either way and who will not say what side they came down on at the actual vote?

"Hey Jawa, what do you think of EU citizens rights?"
"I'm sure it'll be fine"

"Hey Jawa, what about the economy?"
"I'm sure it'll be fine"

"Hey Jawa, what about the risk to trade?"
"I'm sure it'll be fine"