Brexit

Someone on Neogaf has some better information.

The title is misleading. Any bill must pass three readings before it becomes a piece of legislation and takes effect. MPs merely voted in favour of the first reading, which is a largely formal stage - there's no debate or opportunity for amendment, the vote is to determine whether the bill in question is even worth being debated or amended in the first place or whether it should just be thrown out entirely. It is completely obvious that most MPs - even those representing Remain constituencies - would vote for at least this stage of the bill. Regardless of your opinion on Brexit, you cannot possibly pretend that, at this stage, the notion of Leaving is not something that should be treated to full parliamentary process. The second and third readings (and the battle in the Lords) will likely drag on for some time, and there will be many opportunities to vote against or amend the bill at a point it actually matters.

Having said that, nobody understands how parliamentary procedure works and newspapers report it terribly, and I suspect a large number of MPs who voted against this reading know that, and are doing so in a PR move to avoid "voted for Brexit" being on their CV, rather than because they have any actual ambitions to stop the bill by trying to forge alliances with soft Leavers or the like.

Seems this was a vote for the first reading, not a vote to say "you can trigger this right now"

Moggy wrote:
Also, Labour can strawberry float off - 'opposition'. Corbyn's strawberry floated the country as much as anyone else in this debacle.

Corbyn is an absolute banana split, but for those of us that hate the Tory party and have a “rebel” Labour MP it is going to be a difficult decision in 2020 (if we have to wait that long!). Hopefully Corbyn gets ousted in the next year or so and we can get an effective opposition in place.

Obviously I'm not telling you how to vote but assuming the rest of her policies are decent I'd still vote for Thangam in that case. It's not her fault her front bench is full of spineless incompetents.

Rocsteady wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Also, Labour can strawberry float off - 'opposition'. Corbyn's strawberry floated the country as much as anyone else in this debacle.

Corbyn is an absolute banana split, but for those of us that hate the Tory party and have a “rebel” Labour MP it is going to be a difficult decision in 2020 (if we have to wait that long!). Hopefully Corbyn gets ousted in the next year or so and we can get an effective opposition in place.

Obviously I'm not telling you how to vote but assuming the rest of her policies are decent I'd still vote for Thangam in that case. It's not her fault her front bench is full of spineless incompetents.

Yeah I agree it's not her fault, but I am not sure I can bring myself to vote for a party headed up by an utter twat like Corbyn.

It's a decision for a few years time though, a lot can change in 3 years!

God I hope so.

bear wrote:
Garth wrote:
Squinty wrote:May's Brexit Irish border plan is 'nice words' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-i ... s-38829372

I shouldn't have posted this cause we don't listen to experts anymore.

That really is going to be unenforceable. What a mess!

It's a game of chicken at this stage. The government's in Dublin and London both know there has to be some form of border controls introduced but don't want to be the ones to admit that as Unionists/Nationalists will try to make hay by blaming the Irish/British for the economic hardship a border will cause.

I disagree to a certain extent, first off all the blame is clearly aimed at the UK and secondly, our government has clearly outlined that any border situation will have nothing to do with the republic, the game of chicken is over, the blame is cast.

Last edited by Moggy on Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rocsteady wrote:God I hope so.

I didn't say it would be a change for the better.

Moggy wrote:
Rocsteady wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Also, Labour can strawberry float off - 'opposition'. Corbyn's strawberry floated the country as much as anyone else in this debacle.

Corbyn is an absolute banana split, but for those of us that hate the Tory party and have a “rebel” Labour MP it is going to be a difficult decision in 2020 (if we have to wait that long!). Hopefully Corbyn gets ousted in the next year or so and we can get an effective opposition in place.

Obviously I'm not telling you how to vote but assuming the rest of her policies are decent I'd still vote for Thangam in that case. It's not her fault her front bench is full of spineless incompetents.

Yeah I agree it's not her fault, but I am not sure I can bring myself to vote for a party headed up by an utter twat like Corbyn.

It's a decision for a few years time though, a lot can change in 3 years!

I agree, to the point I have dropped my Labour membership.

I thought GRCade was quite Pro-Corbyn? I almost feel bad for the guy. He is obviously a Leaver and has been for decades, in charge of a parliamentary party that is Remain whilst it was probably Labour voters in the Labour heartlands that helped Leave win. Whilst Labour's city votes were strongly remain.

How do you even sort that out? Just hope it's no longer an issue by 2020 General Election?

Grumpy David wrote:I thought GRCade was quite Pro-Corbyn?

Lucien wrote:
OrangeRakoon wrote:I'm in the Reading West constituency, so it annoys me when I look at the brexit vote and see:

BBC wrote:Alok Sharma (Reading West, Con) voted for the bill.

Before the referendum, Alok Sharma wanted the UK to remain in the EU.

Reading as a whole, according to official figures which differentiated by local authority, voted to remain.

Although in fairness, according to this estimate the Reading West vote was narrowly in favour of leave at 53%, and it was Reading East that swung the local authority in favour of remain. That's still a very narrow majority to change a representatives vote on an issue.

You're annoyed that your MP voted with his/her constituency and the country?

No, I was annoyed to see they voted against both their previously held position and seemingly against the way people here voted (from the official figures that showed Reading as voting remain). I looked up the estimates for individual constituencies while writing that post which is when I found that the actual constituency likely voted to leave (the estimates look legit from the low errors calculated from where there are known constituency results, so I believe them). Having done so I am more understanding. With such a narrow majority though it seems strange to me that it would be enough to convince a representative to reverse their previously held position on the issue.

PostRe: The EU Referendum: The UK votes Leave by KK » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:52 pm

As it looks right now, it seems like the next time Labour have a chance of winning an election Sadiq Khan will be leader...so around 2025, presuming we're not all dead by then.

They definitely can't win the next one unless Corbyn buggers off, and I would expect Khan to run as Labour Mayor a 2nd time. Well, I presume Labour will back him over EDDIE IZZARD.

Moggy wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:I thought GRCade was quite Pro-Corbyn?

To be fair to GD, I also recall this place being relatively pro-Corbyn during his early days as party leader. His popularity has massively tanked since around last May.

PostRe: The EU Referendum: The UK votes Leave by KK » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:54 pm

Must be because of all that fake news Trump keeps going on about.

twitter.com/Law_and_policy/status/827151882506354689

Lucien wrote:On that - I wish there was a definite answer for how MPs should have voted. You have a bunch of people saying the national vote is what mattered, then others saying constituencies' votes are more important (if you can figure them out).

When we have a FPTP representative democracy I would argue it's definitely the constituency vote that matters (and it's silly that we have to estimate that and don't have those figures officially). The MP is a representative of their constituency and should vote in line with and in the best interests of their constituents. It's not the job of an MP from London to account for what the people in Newcastle think - they have their own MP to represent them. Any national trend will generally be replicated this way (although you could contrive a situation where it wouldn't - it would be technically possible to have a referendum where the majority population nationally votes one way but the majority of constituencies vote another).

Moggy wrote:
KKLEIN wrote:Some people don't seem to be coming to the realisation that it's going to be difficult for a number of years. Maybe an entire decade.

We never really recovered from the credit crunch of 10 years ago. Add in Brexit, the governments plan to turn us into a tax haven and the prospect of a Tory government until at least 2025 and I think even a decade is being optimistic for the average British person. The real poor in society are utterly strawberry floated.

Is this actually true? I only left home about ten years ago so have no real perspective on what things were like pre credit crunch.

Rhubarb wrote:
Moggy wrote:
KKLEIN wrote:Some people don't seem to be coming to the realisation that it's going to be difficult for a number of years. Maybe an entire decade.

We never really recovered from the credit crunch of 10 years ago. Add in Brexit, the governments plan to turn us into a tax haven and the prospect of a Tory government until at least 2025 and I think even a decade is being optimistic for the average British person. The real poor in society are utterly strawberry floated.

Is this actually true? I only left home about ten years ago so have no real perspective on what things were like pre credit crunch.

Well the country isn’t in recession anymore, but up until Brexit the government was still going on and on about the deficit and austerity being needed. Interest rates haven’t been changed. The employment rate isn’t back to where it was.

Things are not as bad as in the midst of the credit crunch, but the recovery was never fully achieved and has been completely forgotten (along with so many other things) because of Brexit.

Grumpy David wrote:I thought GRCade was quite Pro-Corbyn? I almost feel bad for the guy. He is obviously a Leaver and has been for decades, in charge of a parliamentary party that is Remain whilst it was probably Labour voters in the Labour heartlands that helped Leave win. Whilst Labour's city votes were strongly remain.

How do you even sort that out? Just hope it's no longer an issue by 2020 General Election?

I think some of us were, myself included. I didn't agree with him on some things, but he was a lot representative of my views than his opposition. But it's clear now he is completely ineffectual. He really pissed away the momentum he had going. He needs to go if they are ever to stand a chance at the next GE.

You know what I think was a crying shame? I think Miliband could have been very good. The PR stuff was very on point during the last GE (mandate stone aside). But hey, bacon sandwich! He looks like an idiot eating it!

Grumpy David wrote:I thought GRCade was quite Pro-Corbyn? I almost feel bad for the guy. He is obviously a Leaver and has been for decades, in charge of a parliamentary party that is Remain whilst it was probably Labour voters in the Labour heartlands that helped Leave win. Whilst Labour's city votes were strongly remain.

How do you even sort that out? Just hope it's no longer an issue by 2020 General Election?

I agree with a lot of Corbyn's views. However he reminds me very much of Nintendo in that whilst I believe in their philosophies they are frustrating to follow. Hes not the opposition we need, and in my opinion he takes the heat off May who quite honestly is a clown. If you take oput the whole Remain/Leave argument and your opinions on that, pretty much everything she has done has either been a disaster (court case, USA) or divisive (Brexit means Brexit). I want as much scrutiny on that woman as possible and whilst I think Corbyn does a great job overall in PMQs, overall hes just too soft and not opposed enough to the government.

I can't wait for Scotland to get the strawberry float out.

Brexit

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

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