Brexit

captain red dog wrote:Well it's not really a lie as such. From what I recall the £350m figure doesn't take into account the money we get back from the EU, so when he talks about taking back "control" of the money, there is a certain truth to that, although I personally find that disingenuous.

In terms of the real terms cost of the EU, I think it actually worked out as £170m, which honestly doesn't sound any better to people struggling on the minimum wage.

It's a lie.

bear wrote:

twitter.com/tomb8man/status/909401782723411968

captain red dog wrote:

Hexx wrote:

captain red dog wrote:Well it's not really a lie as such.

"It's not really a lie...it's just...not you know...true"


Leave voters. Just when you thought they couldn't go lower.

It isn't a lie though.

The head of UK Statistics agency called it highly, and purposefully, misleading.

But you carry on. Living down to expectations is a valid choice here.

How do you feel about the other complete porkies in his "essay" (the BoE/investment one is being picked up by the Times right now Edit - Sorry Telegraph.)

I don't get Leave voters. (Not necessarily talking about the forum here )

How insecure do you have to be to defend the lies you're told?

It'd be easy to go "Oh gooseberry fool son. We were lied to. I can't believe we were fooled"...but the vast majority of them seemingly can't comprehend/admit that.

They have to explain how they believed the truth, the arguments that hookwinked they were competently sound and cast iron...(from a certain perspective and with immense caveats and a slightly different use of the word "logic"). It's bizarre.

Same goes for most of the Trumpettes and the doublethink hoops their jumping throw to explain away his lies/false promises.

I agree it's a misuse. But I don't personally class it as lying because he is talking about control of a certain amount of money. He isn't talking about cost on this occasion.

But what can you do, even if you are of the opinion that he is lying there is nothing you can do. A lying politician, well I never!

captain red dog wrote:I agree it's a misuse. But I don't personally class it as lying because he is talking about control of a certain amount of money. He isn't talking about cost on this occasion.

But what can you do, even if you are of the opinion that he is lying there is nothing you can do. A lying politician, well I never!

Again we're back to Trumpland now. Having to debate what a "fact" is. It's a complete fallacy that distracts from actual debate.

And actually what we can do is a) acknowledge and treat it as a lie b) abhor and prevent it's dissemination and further use in discussion and c) hold those desperately clinging to it in the contempt they deserve

A lying politician, well I never!

Normalisation. Look everyone falls for transparent and obvious lies that lead to long term socio-economic harm to their country. Don't judge the Brexiteers! It could happen to anyone!

I kind of get why Denster finds things in here funny when I see a hard left wing poster like CRD desperately trying to defend Boris Johnson, just because Boris was a Leave supporter.

One thing that will be amusing (in a very dark and unpleasant way) will be just how upset hard Left Brexit supporters are going to be in a few years time. Out of the EU protections and with a hard right Tory government. It's going to be a great example of being careful what you wish for.

Moggy wrote:I kind of get why Denster finds things in here funny when I see a hard left wing poster like CRD desperately trying to defend Boris Johnson, just because Boris was a Leave supporter.

One thing that will be amusing (in a very dark and unpleasant way) will be just how upset hard Left Brexit supporters are going to be in a few years time. Out of the EU protections and with a hard right Tory government. It's going to be a great example of being careful what you wish for.

They're not going to be upset at themselves though. Self awareness does not appear to the their strong point.

You're not going to get the realization from them that they got what they wished for. That they miss judged their hopelessly naive and optimistic vision of the future. You'll get whinging that they DIDNT get what they wished for - but it's not their fault!

You'll get recriminations against those that failed to deliver the moon on an stick, and self aggrandising speechs how they were still right to vote for it and it's not their fault (despite being warned) reality was unable to deliver.

I can't see that being funny. I can only see that being even more annoying.

If I was a Tory voter I'd be furious with Johnson over his antics. The Brexit negotiations are quite possibly the most important negotiations any British government has taken part in for the last 50 years and this gobshite self serving toerag decides to go on a high profile solo run a week before the PM is due to make a speech outlining the governments strategy.

The negotiations have a set end point and we are rapidly heading towards a time where hard decisions will have to be made to ensure as smooth as possible exit from the EU. There simply isn't time to waste on this guy's gooseberry fool stirring and his fairytale plan for Brexit. If they this wrong and the economy suffers then that's all on the Conservative party and the party will suffer the consequences of that at the next election.


One small point I saw mentioned on Twitter yesterday. 4000 words from Johnson and not one about the Irish border which is one the EUs top three priorities. Presumably because Johnson knows his hard Brexit vision means a hard border in Ireland but he hasn't got the stones to admit that fact.

bear wrote:If I was a Tory voter I'd be furious with Johnson over his antics. The Brexit negotiations are quite possibly the most important negotiations any British government has taken part in for the last 50 years and this gobshite self serving toerag decides to go on a high profile solo run a week before the PM is due to make a speech outlining the governments strategy.

The negotiations have a set end point and we are rapidly heading towards a time where hard decisions will have to be made to ensure as smooth as possible exit from the EU. There simply isn't time to waste on this guy's gooseberry fool stirring and his fairytale plan for Brexit. If they this wrong and the economy suffers then that's all on the Conservative party and the party will suffer the consequences of that at the next election.


One small point I saw mentioned on Twitter yesterday. 4000 words from Johnson and not one about the Irish border which is one the EUs top three priorities. Presumably because Johnson knows his hard Brexit vision means a hard border in Ireland but he hasn't got the stones to admit that fact.

What would happen if she fired Boris though? Battle lines (seem) to being drawn, but if she pushes him I'd think the Brexitters would riot.

May isn't strong enough to force that confrontation (either personally or politically).

The "best" thing I can see for the Tory party is for Boris to fall on his sword...admit he overspoke and resign for a while...he's not the type to do that. So what happens?

I genuinely have no idea where we go from here (other than a no deal Hard Brexit. But not the Hard Brexit we'll get - the magically everything's fine Hard Brexit being promised. Obviously)

bear wrote:I was a Tory voter I'd be furious with Johnson over his antics.

This is what I don't understand. People like Boris undermine both the Tory party and the Leave campaign. Why would a Tory and/or a Brexiter defend him, rather than just say he's a wanker that doesn't represent the rest of them?

I guess it's confusing for me as I have never been an outright supporter of a political party. I don't get the need to desperately defend the indefensible just because somebody is part of the same party.

I'm a strong Remainer, but if a prominent Remain supporter was talking utter bollocks and lies on the scale of Boris, then I hope I would call them out on it.

captain red dog wrote:I agree it's a misuse. But I don't personally class it as lying because he is talking about control of a certain amount of money. He isn't talking about cost on this occasion.

But what can you do, even if you are of the opinion that he is lying there is nothing you can do. A lying politician, well I never!

Say it after me... 'I was wrong'.

It's not so hard.

Moggy wrote:People like Boris undermine both the Tory party and the Leave campaign. ]

But he hasn't - leave supporters all over the shop are doing the same old mental gymnastics and defending him. It's made Leave a joke to most people with a brain, but then it already was. Reminding the opposition of that hasn't undermined Leave - it was always a joke.

The same old suspects are in the news/Twitter defending him - and the average voter seems inclined to behave the same way.

It's not undermined Leave, it's made them more energetic as they defend the previously debunked gumph as some sort of rally cry.

It's not shamed them by reminding them of past lies - you'd think it should as that figure is enough more laughable a year later - but no it's fired them up to fight based on those lies (and support Boris in a leadership challenge?)

"Good old BoJo. Talking tough to Johnny Foreigner. BREXIT BULLDOGS FOREVER" etc.

I despair.

Edit

twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/909680896654979072

Even as negotiations are falling apart around them, business are sounding alarm bells (car markers )...here comes someone to remind Leave they didn't vote for this (no matter how inevitable they were warned it would be)...they voted for Fantasy Brexit. Completely not their fault they didn't get it.

DML wrote:

captain red dog wrote:I agree it's a misuse. But I don't personally class it as lying because he is talking about control of a certain amount of money. He isn't talking about cost on this occasion.

But what can you do, even if you are of the opinion that he is lying there is nothing you can do. A lying politician, well I never!

Say it after me... 'I was wrong'.

It's not so hard.

CRD has a good get out though. He wants Brexit but with Corbyn as PM. So he can never be "wrong" because Corbyn will never be PM.

This thread cracks me up at times.

Denster wrote:I thought the original figure was 200 million? The extra 150 milllion would come from us having 'grown our economy'.

The £350 million is the figure is the figure we are meant to send to the EU but we get a rebate that is taken out before any money is sent. Also a lot of the money comes back to the UK in grants, so the actually operating saving would be around 120 million a week. Although I'm sure you already knew that.

lex-man wrote:

Denster wrote:I thought the original figure was 200 million? The extra 150 milllion would come from us having 'grown our economy'.

The £350 million is the figure is the figure we are meant to send to the EU but we get a rebate that is taken out before any money is sent. Also a lot of the money comes back to the UK in grants, so the actually operating saving would be around 120 million a week. Although I'm sure you already knew that.

No. I didn't. I don't actually concern myself with the minutiae of things like this.

I know to the day how old Frodo is. Stuff like that. I couldn't care less about the sum.

Apparently, after Brexit in may be illegal for pension companies to pay pensioners living outside of the UK their pension.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ter-brexit

Denster wrote:

lex-man wrote:

Denster wrote:I thought the original figure was 200 million? The extra 150 milllion would come from us having 'grown our economy'.

The £350 million is the figure is the figure we are meant to send to the EU but we get a rebate that is taken out before any money is sent. Also a lot of the money comes back to the UK in grants, so the actually operating saving would be around 120 million a week. Although I'm sure you already knew that.

No. I didn't. I don't actually concern myself with the minutiae of things like this.

I know to the day how old Frodo is. Stuff like that. I couldn't care less about the sum.

It was one of the main arguments during the Brexit referendum. I don't really understand how anyone who watched any news on the issue could not understand it. It was repeated ad nauseum.

lex-man wrote:Apparently, after Brexit in may be illegal for pension companies to pay pensioners living outside of the UK their pension.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ter-brexit

It seems like isotopes issue all over again. I wasn't convinced that the government had actually given that a thought before it was highlighted. I'm thinking this is more of the same.

Squinty wrote:

lex-man wrote:Apparently, after Brexit in may be illegal for pension companies to pay pensioners living outside of the UK their pension.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ter-brexit

It seems like isotopes issue all over again. I wasn't convinced that the government had actually given that a thought before it was highlighted. I'm thinking this is more of the same.

I kind of blame Cameron. He really should have started looking into everything that would need to be dealt with in the case of Brexit at the same time he started the vote. It would have given whoever had to deal with the fallout of this decision a much better chance at success.

Moggy wrote:

DML wrote:

captain red dog wrote:I agree it's a misuse. But I don't personally class it as lying because he is talking about control of a certain amount of money. He isn't talking about cost on this occasion.

But what can you do, even if you are of the opinion that he is lying there is nothing you can do. A lying politician, well I never!

Say it after me... 'I was wrong'.

It's not so hard.

CRD has a good get out though. He wants Brexit but with Corbyn as PM. So he can never be "wrong" because Corbyn will never be PM.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41306354

BBC article on this latest Boris claim, they note the difference with the term "take back control of £350m" that I mentioned in my previous posts. This is why I think this can't be classed an outright lie. Misleading yes, I have never agreed with Boris pushing the £350m figure. But if you feel it's a lie then that's fine, I really don't think it's worth debating as I'm not in agreement with Boris on that figure anyway!

When you say "wrong", what do you mean? I don't believe I have ever agreed with the £350m figure or that particular tactic of the leave campaign to push that message. But what do you expect, it was a Tory campaign!

And yes, I support the old Labour left wing opinion of the EU. Interesting how Labour have moved to the right on that issue but I get called right wing!