Brexit

I dispair at the amount of attention being given to immigrant benefits such as child benefit. It's 30 million a year for God's sake. Leaving or staying in the EU is an absolutely massive decision and people are obsessing over what in the grand scheme of things is little more than spare change. If this is how the referendum debate is going to be faught then the public is going to be totally unable to come to a valid conclusion either way. I woudl appreciate more debate around actual things that matter like the CAP and border control, what local laws might come in to replace EU working directives and so on.

Deal has been done. Press conference incoming.

7 year brake on welfare, with child benefit stopped for all new claimants as soon as laws are passed. Existing claimants will have payments indexed from 2020 onwards. On Eurozone, UK will be able to enact "emergency safeguards" for the City and British business.

There is unanimous support for a deal between the UK and the EU, European Council president Donald Tusk has said.

David Cameron said he would recommend the deal, which said gives the UK "special status" in the EU, to his cabinet on Saturday.
The agreement reached following drawn-out negotiations in Brussels paves the way for the UK's EU referendum.

Downing Street said it included a "brake" on welfare payments that can apply for seven years.
Another sticking point, child benefit curbs, will apply to existing claimants from the start of 2020.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35616768

What we've known all along - Corbyn is still an outer as well:

Guardian wrote:The position of Jeremy Corbyn and shadow chancellor John McDonnell on the European Union has been ambiguous. But Labour MP Kate Hoey placed them firmly in the sceptical camp.

Speaking at the Grassroots Out conference, Hoey, a co-founder of the movement, said some of her Labour colleagues, including Corbyn and McDonnell, “believe, like me, that our membership of the EU is incompatible with Labour values.”

She reeled off a string of senior Labour figures in the past who opposed the European Union. “So, that is why it is so incredibly disappointing somehow, somewhere in the Labour machinery, Jeremy and John have been stifled.” She expressed hope that, in the next month or two, they will come out.

Conservative MP David Davis said about 700 people had been locked out of the conference because there were already too many inside; a tribute to the organisers.

At last, something I could actually agree with Corbyn on.

Why should the UK have special status in the EU. We're not better than the other countries in it.

Dinoric wrote:Why should the UK have special status in the EU. We're not better than the other countries in it.

Depends on what criteria you want to look at it. As people, no. As an economy (outside of Germany), yes. On the world stage, London is more important than any other city in the EU.

Monumental clanger from the Grassroots Out campaign...

Their 'mystery guest' for the evening has been revealed as George Galloway - and he's not proving to be popular. Galloway is on the stage talking about Iran. People now walking out in anger. Farage has called him a "towering figure" .

How strawberry floating embarrassing.

Dinoric wrote:Why should the UK have special status in the EU. We're not better than the other countries in it.

Germany and possibly France aside, we definitely are.

KK wrote:What we've known all along - Corbyn is still an outer as well:

Guardian wrote:The position of Jeremy Corbyn and shadow chancellor John McDonnell on the European Union has been ambiguous. But Labour MP Kate Hoey placed them firmly in the sceptical camp.

Speaking at the Grassroots Out conference, Hoey, a co-founder of the movement, said some of her Labour colleagues, including Corbyn and McDonnell, “believe, like me, that our membership of the EU is incompatible with Labour values.”

She reeled off a string of senior Labour figures in the past who opposed the European Union. “So, that is why it is so incredibly disappointing somehow, somewhere in the Labour machinery, Jeremy and John have been stifled.” She expressed hope that, in the next month or two, they will come out.

Conservative MP David Davis said about 700 people had been locked out of the conference because there were already too many inside; a tribute to the organisers.

At last, something I could actually agree with Corbyn on.

The real headline here is her expecting Jeremy Corbyn to Come Out.

I think the real fear now on the Out side is that if you did add Corbyn to the mix, with Farage and Gallows humour it looks like a right motley crew of fruitcakes.

Cameron giving one hell of a speech on TV now. The PR man against the PR disasters.

Meep wrote:I dispair at the amount of attention being given to immigrant benefits such as child benefit. It's 30 million a year for God's sake. Leaving or staying in the EU is an absolutely massive decision and people are obsessing over what in the grand scheme of things is little more than spare change. If this is how the referendum debate is going to be faught then the public is going to be totally unable to come to a valid conclusion either way. I woudl appreciate more debate around actual things that matter like the CAP and border control, what local laws might come in to replace EU working directives and so on.

I do agree that the £30million is not worth worrying about, but at the same time it is very wrong that people get paid child benefit for kids that don't live here.

I'm happy to pay child benefit for the kids of EU or any immigrants, but only if they are living here.

I believe there is a level of arrogance about saying the UK does not need the support of the rest of Europe. Sure, it might be in a relatively strong position now, but reversals can happen in incredibly short periods of time and we would do well to remember we have been in much worse positions in the past and probably will be again from time to time. There will come a day when we will be grateful for the support of the EU economic and otherwise so we should not foucs so much on the short term.

The days of empire are long gone, European countries are small and less significant factors between the great powers of America, China, Russia and India. I believe that future crisis will force the continent to rely more strongly on the union in order to proective our collective interests.

I'll be voting to leave. I just don't agree with how such an undemocratic body has more control over our laws than our own government. The whole reform package that David Cameron has been dragging over the last few months is just a poor distraction, I dont think any of the things he was asking for are even that important.
If I understand correctly then our new 'special status' simply means we can stall new laws that we don't agree with, but it's just a delay tactic, we still have no real power to stop them being implemented and so realistically nothing changes.

NickSCFC wrote:

Dinoric wrote:Why should the UK have special status in the EU. We're not better than the other countries in it.

Germany and possibly France aside, we definitely are.

You joking? How are we 'better' than the other countries in the EU?

We already have special status in the EU despite being economically smaller than Germany, we have the largest number of opt outs in place - most of which are in extremely substantial areas.

Rocsteady wrote:

NickSCFC wrote:

Dinoric wrote:Why should the UK have special status in the EU. We're not better than the other countries in it.

Germany and possibly France aside, we definitely are.

You joking? How are we 'better' than the other countries in the EU?

Culturally - Our music (The Beatles, Queen... Dizee Rascal) and film is famous throughout the world, a result of having a long history of freedom, innovation and our language being the "lingua franca".

Economically - Our economy is growing faster than most in Europe, London is a global capital.

Historically - At it's height the British Empire had a fifth of the world's population as it's subjects, the sun never set on the British Empire. Aaaaah, the Empire

People...lly - Charles Darwin, Sir Isaac Newton, Tim Berners Lee, William Shakespeare, Charles Dickens, Alan Turing, David Bowie, Chris Eubank

I'm voting to stay, this is for a number of reasons but ultimately my main interest is in energy and the policies around it as this is where my career and education is based. Britain's looming energy crisis and that faced by the world over the next 20/30 years would be better solved by Britain remaining in the EU. To stop this topic being derailed I'm not interesting in debating this in here.

The out campaign had done nothing to convince me that leaving would be beneficial.

NickSCFC wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:

NickSCFC wrote:

Dinoric wrote:Why should the UK have special status in the EU. We're not better than the other countries in it.

Germany and possibly France aside, we definitely are.

You joking? How are we 'better' than the other countries in the EU?

Culturally - Our music (The Beatles, Queen... Dizee Rascal) and film is famous throughout the world, a result of having a long history of freedom, innovation and our language being the "lingua franca".

Economically - Our economy is growing faster than most in Europe, London is a global capital.

Historically - At it's height the British Empire had a fifth of the world's population as it's subjects, the sun never set on the British Empire. Aaaaah, the Empire

People...lly - Charles Darwin, Sir Isaac Newton, Tim Berners Lee, William Shakespeare, Charles Dickens, Alan Turing, David Bowie, Chris Eubank

Much of that is reliant on our historical past, which I'm not sure is the best marker for current triumphalism. Particularly when you reference the repressive, racist colonialist era in such glowing terms.

Musically, yeah, we're typically pretty great. Although more modern music has largely shifted away from typical locations - the biggest and best DJs and music producers currently emerge from everywhere, with the Netherlands and Scandinavia in particular having become musical hotspots.

Stretching that to all culture's a bit much - do we really believe we're more cultured than Italians? That some French film doesn't equal our own?

Economically's a bit shaky ground as I doubt that anyone here would argue Russia or China are better nations than ourselves due to their economic power.

I hate the little englander mentality that we still hold some incredible, unique power on the world stage. The more you travel the more you realise no-one particularly gives a strawberry float about the uk, understandably.

Every country in Europe has delights in their food, alcohol, theatre, music, art, architecture, famous figures, film... The shared mentality that within certain limits borders are irrelevant is a beautiful thing. Are we really so different from others due to a small strip of water?

I can see the reasons for leaving, and the democratic deficit at the heart of the EU is a worry. But to act with a sense of superiority imbued in us because we were born on a small island in Northern Europe is misguided and ridiculous.

Nick, the Empire was a horrific time of cultural destruction, slavery, murder and thievery that we should all be ashamed of.

Shadow wrote:Nick, the Empire was a horrific time of cultural destruction, slavery, murder and thievery that we should all be ashamed of.

I don't think we should be ashamed of it, it was nothing to do with any of us. And so I also don't think we should be proud of it, it was nothing to do with us.

Shadow wrote:Nick, the Empire was a horrific time of cultural destruction, slavery, murder and thievery that we should all be ashamed of.

Yeah just completely ignore the science, technology, medicine, judicial systems and democracy we introduced to the darkest corners of the world