Moggy wrote:...I said they had no logical arguments. And I’m still waiting to hear one....
Dude, I wonder if this is the thing that would deter people from wanting to enter a discussion here. Your wording appears to indicate that you are closed to different opinions and, frustratingly, on the basis that - logically - any argument wouldn’t pass muster. Why would folk raise a point in that situation?
The wording literally says I am waiting for a logical argument. That’s not being closed to different opinions, that’s asking to hear one.
Leavers are really really paranoid about all this and so defensive about their beliefs. I’m not stopping anybody posting (no matter how many times you claim it), but I will not sit back and not post either.
But, hey, I’m a glutton for punishment so here are two arguments, albeit ones that I expect have been talked over a thousand times already and that we probably won’t agree on:
For somebody that’s brought up the tone of postings, is that sentence above really a great opening to a discussion? Glutton for punishment, we won’t agree, talked over a thousand times?
1) I prefer the idea of the UK being in a position to devise and administer laws independent of outside influence.
As you guessed later on, I don’t agree with this as we can already make our own laws. We also have an equal say in any European laws. Arguing like this is like saying Bristol should be independent. Maybe there’s a good case to be made for that, but it needs more evidence than just “I prefer this little bit of land to make different laws”.
2) I like the notion of the UK being able to approach countries worldwide and agree trading processes independent of outside influence.
The trouble is that such a huge amount of our trade comes from EU member states. We will be cutting ourselves off from the biggest trading bloc on the entire planet.
And for what? America will never give us a free trade deal. Canada already has one with the EU. China? Russia? Tuvalu?
Now, I know that you will provide examples and links as to how the UK could already devise and implement aspects of laws... but it won’t be to the same degree of an independent nation. Equally, I recognise that being a part of the EU enables ease of trade with the other countries in that zone; but I think the UK has the capability to negotiate independently and worldwide.
I am not for one moment suggesting there won’t be bumps in the road with these two points, nor that other aspects of leaving the EU wouldn’t make the overall picture more challenging. But, for me, those two points are reasonable approaches that are attractive.
I can see that those two points look attractive when presented in the way that you have. But the reality is not looking that way. Even ardent Leavers are now stating/admitting that we are going to be poorer because of Brexit.
To me it is not logical to make yourself poorer just so you can theoretically make a trade deal with another country (that might never happen) or so that you can make your own law on how bendy bananas are (that’s humorous, I know the bendy banana thing is rubbish).