Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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Tafdolphin
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PostRe: Brexit
by Tafdolphin » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:15 am

Although this is just repeating a fact stated many times before, the entire referendum was in of itself an act of extreme arrogance and oversimplification. That Cameron believed the British public could make an informed decision on such bafflingly complex matter whilst being harangued by two politically motivated campaigns, both with a spurious hold on the truth, was insane.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:20 am

Regginator3 wrote:
lex-man wrote:I think ignorance is ingrained on both sides. I'm very pro-remain but I doubt many EU supporters had an indepth understanding of the workings of the EU.

Most of the debate was pretty simplistic.

This is actually completely true. The amount of people I know on my FB who during the referendum were acting all high and mighty and posting about how 'intelligent people will vote remain' and 'academics are all in favour of it' yet didn't even understand the difference between the EU Commission (what most people have a problem with) and the EU Parliament, didn't know the extent/weight of EU policies on domestic matters, even the implications on trade was legitimately saddening.

Then of course we had Cameron implying threat of WW3 with Europe if we left and I think that's when a lot of people decided that the Remain campaign was a bunch of bullshit threats rather than an actual campaign to showcase the good things the EU does.


There’s a difference in the ignorance though.

I don’t expect any normal people to fully understand the workings of the EU. A basic understanding would be nice, but nobody really needs to be able to explain in excruciating detail how the Commission works or what powers the European Parliament has. People don’t really need to know how trade deals are reached with Japan.

Where the difference lies is that ignorant Remainers looked at what the experts were saying and voted accordingly. Ignorant Leavers either trusted their own inbuilt xenophobia or listened to the xenophobia of proven liars like Farage and Johnson.

There’s a massive difference between ignorantly following the advice of experts and ignorantly following the advice of idiots.

And Cameron never predicted WW3. That was more Leave lies designed to fool the ignorant into voting against “the scaremongering elites”.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Regginator3 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:40 am

Moggy wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
lex-man wrote:I think ignorance is ingrained on both sides. I'm very pro-remain but I doubt many EU supporters had an indepth understanding of the workings of the EU.

Most of the debate was pretty simplistic.

This is actually completely true. The amount of people I know on my FB who during the referendum were acting all high and mighty and posting about how 'intelligent people will vote remain' and 'academics are all in favour of it' yet didn't even understand the difference between the EU Commission (what most people have a problem with) and the EU Parliament, didn't know the extent/weight of EU policies on domestic matters, even the implications on trade was legitimately saddening.

Then of course we had Cameron implying threat of WW3 with Europe if we left and I think that's when a lot of people decided that the Remain campaign was a bunch of bullshit threats rather than an actual campaign to showcase the good things the EU does.


There’s a difference in the ignorance though.

I don’t expect any normal people to fully understand the workings of the EU. A basic understanding would be nice, but nobody really needs to be able to explain in excruciating detail how the Commission works or what powers the European Parliament has. People don’t really need to know how trade deals are reached with Japan.

Where the difference lies is that ignorant Remainers looked at what the experts were saying and voted accordingly. Ignorant Leavers either trusted their own inbuilt xenophobia or listened to the xenophobia of proven liars like Farage and Johnson.

There’s a massive difference between ignorantly following the advice of experts and ignorantly following the advice of idiots.

And Cameron never predicted WW3. That was more Leave lies designed to fool the ignorant into voting against “the scaremongering elites”.

I said "implied" for a reason. His wording wasn't technically saying "it will happen" but the message was to scare people into thinking war was more likely to happen after leaving the EU. I completely deny that war would happen in or out of the EU because NATO is what is protecting us, not the EU. The EU does many good things though but to take credit for peace is pretty funny.

A political union certainly does not help prevent peace - look at what happened regarding Catalonia last year, and look at various civil wars throughout history. It doesn't really mean anything. Even in a strong political union (such as an international one in the EU, or a national one such as in the USA) peace can be broken if there is enough discord. If I remember right, I remember reading that, actually, civil war is more likely than any other kind of war. Domestic policy is usually more volatile than international disagreements.

Also re: "the experts" and "the ignorant" - It depends what you were listening out for, and who you're talking about. Specifically, "experts" in the field of economics. Voting in line with experts makes sense if you're just looking for short-term economic growth being stable. Many didn't care about that, but wanted enhanced long-term national growth, local growth, an improved focus on manufacturing and a redistribution plan across the UK - something no expert touched on at all. The vast majority of experts only focused on the short-term - almost none talked about the long-term effects. This is something I'm actually surprised about looking back at the referendum in retrospect - all of the warnings were about the short term, I don't see any major warnings about the long-term repercussions about Brexit. Many actual experts also pointed out that a weaker pound would improve manufacturing output and exports - which again, did happen, and if that's what you wanted, it's not ignorant to vote that way.

The point here is that listening unquestioningly to an expert is not always the way to go, unless you're sure the conclusions that they reach are in line, exactly, with your motivation/interest. Many of the things Johnson and Farage said, that many people who voted Leave wanted, will actually happen, for example a reduction in immigration and increased British sovereignty (whether you agree on those being good things or not) and avoiding a potential EU army or "United States of Europe" - things that the Remain campaign repeatedly called out as ridiculous but are now being seriously suggested by Martin Schulz and Guy Verhofstadt and are picking up momentum across the EU. We can dismiss that as "xenophobic" if you want, as if there is absolutely no benefit to reducing immigration whatsoever beyond pure xenophobia, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not "ignorant" to vote that way if that is what you want as an end goal.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:52 am

Regginator3 wrote:I said "implied" for a reason. His wording wasn't technically saying "it will happen" but the message was to scare people into thinking war was more likely to happen after leaving the EU. I completely deny that war would happen in or out of the EU because NATO is what is protecting us, not the EU. The EU does many good things though but to take credit for peace is pretty funny.

A political union certainly does not help prevent peace - look at what happened regarding Catalonia last year, and look at various civil wars throughout history. It doesn't really mean anything. Even in a strong political union (such as an international one in the EU, or a national one such as in the USA) peace can be broken if there is enough discord.


The nations of Europe have been at each others throats since the fall of the Western Roman Empire. We have lived through a period of peace between the nations that form the EU. I agree that NATO has a lot to do with it, but it is completely wrong to suggest that the EU hasn’t contributed towards that peace.

With an increasingly hard right UK outside of the EU, competing for trade deals and with British politicians blaming the EU for a lack of growth/recession, then I don’t think it is ridiculous to imply that those tensions may one day spill over into violence.


Also re: "the experts" and "the ignorant" - It depends what you were listening out for, and who you're talking about. Specifically, "experts" in the field of economics. Voting in line with experts makes sense if you're just looking for short-term economic growth being stable. Many didn't care about that, but wanted enhanced long-term national growth, local growth, an improved focus on manufacturing and a redistribution plan across the UK - something no expert touched on at all. The vast majority of experts only focused on the short-term - almost none talked about the long-term effects. This is something I'm actually surprised about looking back at the referendum in retrospect - all of the warnings were about the short term, I don't see any major warnings about the long-term repercussions about Brexit. Many actual experts also pointed out that a weaker pound would improve manufacturing output and exports - which again, did happen, and if that's what you wanted, it's not ignorant to vote that way.

The point here is that listening unquestioningly to an expert is not always the way to go, unless you're sure the conclusions that they reach are in line, exactly, with your motivation/interest. Many of the things Johnson and Farage said, that many people who voted Leave wanted, will actually happen, for example a reduction in immigration and increased British sovereignty (whether you agree on those being good things or not) and avoiding a potential "United States of Europe". We can dismiss that as "xenophobic" if you want, as if there is absolutely no benefit to reducing immigration whatsoever beyond pure xenophobia, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not "ignorant" to vote that way if that is what you want as an end goal.


My point was that if you are comparing two camps of ignorance, one side listened to experts, one side didn’t.

It would be two people deciding to invest some money but knowing nothing about investments.

One of them goes to an IFA and invests sensibly in line with the advice they were given.

The other asks a random bloke in the pub who suggests putting all the money on a horse.

Now it might turn out that the IFA chose some poor investment platforms and the bloke in the pub actually picked out a decent horse, but the level of ignorance is different because one person was listening to an expert in the field and the other was just watching a horse in a field.

And very few anti-immigration people voted for any reason other than xenophobia.

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PostRe: Brexit
by lex-man » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:01 am

I'm kind of in two minds about the war thing. While I think that Cameron was 100% right, leaving the EU does increase the future chance of war, it is questionable how much. Also think that comment was bound to be picked up and used in the way it was. It didn't help the case for EU, although neither did him constantly saying "the EU's not perfect but...". I kind of feel we're on a slippery slope back to war but it could still be some time away.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Regginator3 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:08 am

Picking up on this bit because I think it's the main point I'm getting at here:

Moggy wrote:My point was that if you are comparing two camps of ignorance, one side listened to experts, one side didn’t.

It would be two people deciding to invest some money but knowing nothing about investments.

One of them goes to an IFA and invests sensibly in line with the advice they were given.

The other asks a random bloke in the pub who suggests putting all the money on a horse.

Now it might turn out that the IFA chose some poor investment platforms and the bloke in the pub actually picked out a decent horse, but the level of ignorance is different because one person was listening to an expert in the field and the other was just watching a horse in a field.

The flaw with this analogy is that by investing money, presumably, your goal is to gain money. In this particular scenario, the goals of the person who invested in what an IFA suggests and the goal of the person who invested in the Random Bloke In The Pub suggests are the same. Naturally, with investments, you would go to an IFA or institutional investor. This is objectively true and there *is* a correct/incorrect decision here. Assuming that the random bloke in the pub doesn't have insider information and could prove it, of course, but at its core, the IFA would be the right way to go. You can objectively measure the outcomes as being "better" or "worse".

A better analogy (without any direct transposition between Remain/Leave and the two options, here, but the point is about the differences) would be investing money into 2 different football clubs - you can invest in an up-and-coming, extremely talented local football group who may be Premier League material in the long run, or a run-down football club with relatively limited talent who would never enter the Premier League. The former may be best if, yes, you want to make a lot of money, have a lot of fame and glory and help the team which deserves to be in the PL to begin its progress into entering the PL. The other may be best if, for example, your child is in that club and you know they don't have the money to get new equipment, or if the club has a particular niche (such as helping troubled kids, or focusing on special needs children). The decision on what to invest in isn't so objective.

Now I'm not saying the Remain/Leave vote is directly comparable to this. I don't think there is one that is inherently as benevolent as investing in the run-down club mentioned above. The point is that the goals were completely different, but to say that they were necessarily "ignorant" because their goals were different is certainly not necessarily true. We can argue with Leavers as to whether or not the benefits of remaining in the EU outweigh the benefits of leaving, but that doesn't change the fact that they may actually be perfectly aware of the outcome, but just not care because their areas of interest are more important to them than the areas of Remainers' interests. Whether it's overall a good idea is slightly irrelevant. There is no objective measure to suggest whether the option is "better" or "worse" overall.

Of course you do get ignorant leavers who literally were ignorant though.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:17 am

Regginator3 wrote: but to say that they were necessarily "ignorant" because their goals were different is certainly not necessarily true.


We were talking about people who were unaware of how the EU worked and what it all meant. I was then talking about people being ignorant on both sides.

The definition of ignorant:

lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated


That describes the majority of voters in the referendum. They didn’t have the knowledge of exactly what the EU does and were uneducated on how it all worked. Unsophisticated is a bit harsh so I will leave that one. ;)

My point is that the ignorant Remain voters looked at what experts were saying and voted accordingly. Ignorant Leave voters looked at what felt right, what Farage was saying, how many Polish voices they heard in the high street and then listened to “Rule Britannia” on loop for a month.

There is a vast difference in the levels of ignorance between the two camps.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Regginator3 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:24 am

Moggy wrote:My point is that the ignorant Remain voters looked at what experts were saying and voted accordingly. Ignorant Leave voters looked at what felt right, what Farage was saying, how many Polish voices they heard in the high street and then listened to “Rule Britannia” on loop for a month.

But how can you possibly say this?

The idea that ignorant Remain voters necessarily even "listened to the experts" in the first place is questionable. I seriously doubt many of them even bothered looking at what the experts were saying at all, but just were doing OK and didn't want anything to change because they knew it was basically the status quo option. Hell, maybe the ignorant Remain voters just read the headlines in The Guardian while they were shopping in Marks and Spencers and felt scared.

I don't think the experts had any noticeable sway in any "ignorant" voters' minds at all, from either side. Probably the only sway they had was to reinforce the non-ignorant Remain voters' decision.

I don't agree with the idea that just because ignorant Remain voters happened to have the same view as the experts that means they listened to them.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:31 am

How can I possibly say it? Because that’s pretty much what happened with a lot of people.

They were ignorant of the facts behind the EU, but they would have seen the coverage of the referendum and would have picked up on what was being said by the experts. They voted accordingly. It was all over the news in the weeks running up to the referendum, people saw what the politicians and the economists were saying.

Ignorant Remain voters said “I’ll go along with that”

Ignorant Leave voters said “Farage says it’s project fear, I will ignore them”

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PostRe: Brexit
by Regginator3 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:38 am

Moggy wrote:How can I possibly say it? Because that’s pretty much what happened with a lot of people.

They were ignorant of the facts behind the EU, but they would have seen the coverage of the referendum and would have picked up on what was being said by the experts. They voted accordingly. It was all over the news in the weeks running up to the referendum, people saw what the politicians and the economists were saying.

Ignorant Remain voters said “I’ll go along with that”

Ignorant Leave voters said “Farage says it’s project fear, I will ignore them”

So we're talking about people who are ignorant of "facts about the EU", yet they supposedly watched all of this information which would have to contain facts about the EU.

And, again, that's not necessarily true. Ignorant Leave voters may have listened to, for example (just choosing one quickly): https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -recession

And thought "hmm, we'll feel it for a couple of years (and we have no idea what will happen after that) and the pound will drop 15%. Doesn't sound like enough of a disaster to change my vote".

Why is "I'll go along with that" less ignorant than "I don't actually really care about this much"? They're both perfectly aware of what the experts are saying. Just because they reject the experts doesn't make them more/less ignorant.

Worth bearing in mind those experts were actually wrong anyway.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:43 am

Regginator3 wrote:So we're talking about people who are ignorant of "facts about the EU", yet they supposedly watched all of this information which would have to contain facts about the EU.


No. We are talking about people that are ignorant of how the EU works who are normal human beings that can’t help but see all of the information that was broadcast all over the TV, printed in all the papers and was all over social media in the run up to the referendum.

Why is "I'll go along with that" less ignorant than "I don't actually really care about this much"? They're both perfectly aware of what the experts are saying. Just because they reject the experts doesn't make them more/less ignorant.


You seem to still not understand what I mean by ignorant. I’ll try again.

lacking knowledge or awareness in general


When I say ignorant, I mean people that have put no effort into looking into how the EU is run and how EU policies in turn change UK policies.

An ignorant Remain voter is just as ignorant as an ignorant Leave voter. But if they based their vote on what they read experts saying (even if it was just a headline they saw in the shop) then that is a different form of ignorance to the “my high street is full of Polish people” style vote.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Regginator3 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:48 am

Moggy wrote:No. We are talking about people that are ignorant of how the EU works who are normal human beings that can’t help but see all of the information that was broadcast all over the TV, printed in all the papers and was all over social media in the run up to the referendum.

So then they took in the same amount of information as each other. They both, presumably, saw the £350 million pledge bus and the numerous sources which quickly debunked it.

When I say ignorant, I mean people that have put no effort into looking into how the EU is run and how EU policies in turn change UK policies.

An ignorant Remain voter is just as ignorant as an ignorant Leave voter. But if they based their vote on what they read experts saying (even if it was just a headline they saw in the shop) then that is a different form of ignorance to the “my high street is full of Polish people” style vote.

That isn't anything to do with ignorance, though. Unwise and racist, perhaps, but not ignorant. But they still have the same amount of awareness and information as each other, by the very metric you were measuring ignorance by in the first place as above. Both being normal people subjected to the same media coverage.

Since you are talking about "lacking awareness or knowledge" as the definition of ignorance, what awareness/knowledge did those who reject the experts and voted in a "my high street is full of Polish people" way lack that those who blindly went with the experts have?

Last edited by Regginator3 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:49 am

This is getting more dull than the tax conversation. I'm out.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Regginator3 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:51 am

Moggy wrote:This is getting more dull than the tax conversation. I'm out.

That's fine, but I'm going to note that you didn't actually explain what "awareness" or "knowledge" those Leave voters lacked that the Remain voters had. In fact by your very definition of them being subjected to the same media coverage, they were given the exact same awareness and knowledge, just handled it in a different way. That isn't ignorance.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:58 am

Regginator3 wrote:
Moggy wrote:This is getting more dull than the tax conversation. I'm out.

That's fine, but I'm going to note that you didn't actually explain what "awareness" or "knowledge" those Leave voters lacked that the Remain voters had. In fact by your very definition of them being subjected to the same media coverage, they were given the exact same awareness and knowledge, just handled it in a different way. That isn't ignorance.


Jesus strawberry floating Christ.

What I was saying is that they are BOTH ignorant. Equally ignorant. Both without the knowledge.

The difference is one side voted in line with what experts said. The other voted in line with what known liars/racists said.

That’s the difference. Both are still ignorant, they have done no more than look at a headline.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Regginator3 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:08 pm

Moggy wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Moggy wrote:This is getting more dull than the tax conversation. I'm out.

That's fine, but I'm going to note that you didn't actually explain what "awareness" or "knowledge" those Leave voters lacked that the Remain voters had. In fact by your very definition of them being subjected to the same media coverage, they were given the exact same awareness and knowledge, just handled it in a different way. That isn't ignorance.


Jesus strawberry floating Christ.

What I was saying is that they are BOTH ignorant. Equally ignorant. Both without the knowledge.

The difference is one side voted in line with what experts said. The other voted in line with what known liars/racists said.

That’s the difference. Both are still ignorant, they have done no more than look at a headline.

I was under the impression you were arguing that ignorant leave voters were more ignorant than ignorant remain voters, not that there was a difference in how they handled information when you said "there is a vast difference in the levels of ignorance between the two camps". If you were just saying that they were equally ignorant then yes, I agree.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:09 pm

It's pretty obvious what Moggy means. No normal member of the public is in themselves an expert on the EU. But the weight of clever people who do know about these things was behind "leaving is a bad idea" (for all sorts of reasons). It would be rational for most people to go along with that.

I don't think the majority of Leave voters were playing 4000 IQ 6-dimensional hyperchess and wanted to crash the economy to exploit a weak currency. I think they just wanted the guy who owns the Polish supermarket on their high street to be as miserable as they are.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Blue Eyes » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:11 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Moggy wrote:This is getting more dull than the tax conversation. I'm out.

That's fine, but I'm going to note that you didn't actually explain what "awareness" or "knowledge" those Leave voters lacked that the Remain voters had. In fact by your very definition of them being subjected to the same media coverage, they were given the exact same awareness and knowledge, just handled it in a different way. That isn't ignorance.


Jesus strawberry floating Christ.

What I was saying is that they are BOTH ignorant. Equally ignorant. Both without the knowledge.

The difference is one side voted in line with what experts said. The other voted in line with what known liars/racists said.

That’s the difference. Both are still ignorant, they have done no more than look at a headline.

I was under the impression you were arguing that ignorant leave voters were more ignorant than ignorant remain voters, not that there was a difference in how they handled information when you said "there is a vast difference in the levels of ignorance between the two camps". If you were just saying that they were equally ignorant then yes, I agree.

They weren't, though. If you don't want to use the word "ignorant", swap in "irrational" or "petulant" or "plain strawberry floating stupid" and it only describes one of the two.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Hexx » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:22 pm

Dear God. Davis is still pushing Cakeism and saying the EU give us total access to your markets without us being bound by their Regulations (ours will be just a good! Honest!)

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:25 pm



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