Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
200
78%
Leave the European Union
56
22%
 
Total votes: 256
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lex-man
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PostRe: Brexit
by lex-man » Sat May 06, 2017 11:46 am

Moggy wrote:
lex-man wrote:
Death's Head wrote:
lex-man wrote:
Death's Head wrote:It wouldn't happen over night but there has already been a large uptick of people learning Chinese in the West. If another country become dominate in the world you would see a shift towards learning that language that would accelerate quicker than you would think. Although it'd still take around 30 years after the US dropped from prominence.

It wouldn't happen quicker than I think and I stand by a best case of hundreds of years. Just the complexity of having to rewrite legal documents would be enough to put people off. I bet there are very few if any western industry leaders who speak Chinese.


All the EUs legal documents are already published in a number of different languages so they wouldn't have to be rewritten. It's only really English speaking countries where they're not. Also there is already a huge industry of people who translate legal documents into different languages.


I doubt the EU publish many documents in Mandarin though.


Sure, but German, French or Spanish could become the biggest language in Europe quite easily.

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Death's Head
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PostRe: RE: Re: Brexit
by Death's Head » Sat May 06, 2017 12:35 pm

lex-man wrote:
Death's Head wrote:
lex-man wrote:
Death's Head wrote:It wouldn't happen over night but there has already been a large uptick of people learning Chinese in the West. If another country become dominate in the world you would see a shift towards learning that language that would accelerate quicker than you would think. Although it'd still take around 30 years after the US dropped from prominence.

It wouldn't happen quicker than I think and I stand by a best case of hundreds of years. Just the complexity of having to rewrite legal documents would be enough to put people off. I bet there are very few if any western industry leaders who speak Chinese.


All the EUs legal documents are already published in a number of different languages so they wouldn't have to be rewritten. It's only really English speaking countries where they're not. Also there is already a huge industry of people who translate legal documents into different languages.

Wrong. I was looking at the contracts from our Finnish office this week and the contract with a Finnish customer is all in English. This is just a recent example, I see this kind of thing all of the time.

Yes?
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Death's Head
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PostRe: Brexit
by Death's Head » Sat May 06, 2017 12:37 pm

If there was any serious thought on this it would have happened, the UK leaving the EU makes no difference - English was the language of business before we were in the EU and will remain so after we've left.

Yes?
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lex-man
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PostRe: RE: Re: Brexit
by lex-man » Sat May 06, 2017 12:39 pm

Death's Head wrote:
lex-man wrote:
Death's Head wrote:
lex-man wrote:
Death's Head wrote:It wouldn't happen over night but there has already been a large uptick of people learning Chinese in the West. If another country become dominate in the world you would see a shift towards learning that language that would accelerate quicker than you would think. Although it'd still take around 30 years after the US dropped from prominence.

It wouldn't happen quicker than I think and I stand by a best case of hundreds of years. Just the complexity of having to rewrite legal documents would be enough to put people off. I bet there are very few if any western industry leaders who speak Chinese.


All the EUs legal documents are already published in a number of different languages so they wouldn't have to be rewritten. It's only really English speaking countries where they're not. Also there is already a huge industry of people who translate legal documents into different languages.

Wrong. I was looking at the contracts from our Finnish office this week and the contract with a Finnish customer is all in English. This is just a recent example, I see this kind of thing all of the time.


I dated a woman whose job it was to translate legal documents between English, Spanish, Italian and German, so I'm not totally wrong.

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lex-man
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PostRe: Brexit
by lex-man » Sat May 06, 2017 12:40 pm

Death's Head wrote:If there was any serious thought on this it would have happened, the UK leaving the EU makes no difference - English was the language of business before we were in the EU and will remain so after we've left.


Sure, it would take something big happening in the US to really damage English as the international language.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Sat May 06, 2017 1:00 pm

lex-man wrote:
Death's Head wrote:If there was any serious thought on this it would have happened, the UK leaving the EU makes no difference - English was the language of business before we were in the EU and will remain so after we've left.


Sure, it would take something big happening in the US to really damage English as the international language.


It's a good job the US has a sane and intelligent man in charge then.

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Death's Head
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PostRe: RE: Re: Brexit
by Death's Head » Sat May 06, 2017 1:08 pm

lex-man wrote:
Death's Head wrote:If there was any serious thought on this it would have happened, the UK leaving the EU makes no difference - English was the language of business before we were in the EU and will remain so after we've left.


Sure, it would take something big happening in the US to really damage English as the international language.

I think the US is largely irrelevant in this discussion. We have an international language, there needs to be one and there is no benefit to introducing a different one, just creating extra work.

Yes?
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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Sat May 06, 2017 1:16 pm

Lagamorph wrote:
lex-man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:If any language is likely to replace English as the international language used the world over, then it will not be a European language. It's much more likely to be Mandarin.


Why? China has a large population but it's languages are not commonly spoken anywhere else. English, Spanish and French have a large number of native speakers plus a huge number that speak it as a second or third tongue. That's why they'll win out over a language like Mandarin that's not spread over the globe.


Spanish actually has more native speakers than English. Also it's very similar to Italian and Portuguese which extends in reach. I doubt it'll overtake English unless the US economy collapses though.

If you factor in second languages I'd imagine English is more widely spoken.
I expect more people in France speak English than speak Italian and more people in Germany speak English than speak Spanish, etc.


Yeah, factoring in second languages English is definitely more spoken. It's also recognised in far more countries than Spanish and French. It's not going anywhere.

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lex-man
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PostRe: RE: Re: Brexit
by lex-man » Sat May 06, 2017 1:17 pm

Death's Head wrote:
lex-man wrote:
Death's Head wrote:If there was any serious thought on this it would have happened, the UK leaving the EU makes no difference - English was the language of business before we were in the EU and will remain so after we've left.


Sure, it would take something big happening in the US to really damage English as the international language.

I think the US is largely irrelevant in this discussion. We have an international language, there needs to be one and there is no benefit to introducing a different one, just creating extra work.


I don't think it'll happen artificially. I think another culture may become dominant and slowly alter the language people want to learn.

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KK
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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Sat May 06, 2017 7:42 pm

The Times via The Independent wrote:Former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis has described Theresa May's Brexit negotiation tactics as "precisely wrong".

Mr Varoufakis, who in 2015 attempted to negotiate a settlement for Greece with the European Union, said the PM's main problems in the talks would stem from bureaucratic practices in Brussels, combined with a "technocracy that is desperately clinging on to its own exorbitant illegitimate power".

In an interview with The Times, the politician argues that European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker will have to make an "example" of Britain, and warns that, no matter how stubbornly Mrs May insists on a deal beneficial to the UK, the EU will not comply.

"She's got it completely wrong," he said.

"You can be wrong and you can be precisely wrong. She is precisely wrong.

"Britain will have to be made an example of, any recalcitrant government that steps outside the modus vivendi will be crushed. You are going against a combination of a bureaucracy in Brussels and politicians who feel the ground under their feet is increasingly brittle, like Angela Merkel.

"The last thing you do is go in there and say: 'I'm triggering Article 50 and I am going to get my way'."

Mr Varoufakis said his meetings about Greece's future had been filled with frustration and that his hopes for reaching a compromise were ruined because the EU "loathes democracy".

He said there was no way Europe would allow a deal that left Britain in "a better place".

There will be no negotiations, make no mistake," he said.

The politician, who held several academic teaching positions for economics all over the world, said Ms May should ask for a Norway-style agreement for five years as an alternative to a hard Brexit in order to give parliament time to iron out the specifics.
"The UK can't say no because it is an off-the-shelf agreement," he said.

"There is only one person in Europe who matters. Her name is Angela Merkel. If May said she wanted a Norway-style agreement, Merkel would probably say 'thank God', the hot potato would land in the lap of the next chancellor."

Norway has access to the EU Single Market without full membership, and Nick Clegg is in support of a similar model.

However, as a Norwegian former EU adviser points out, adopting such a stance would come at a democratic cost.

Mr Varoufakis pointed out the strength of Germany's influence in the EU.

Ms Merkel told an audience at the EU's Brexit summit lasty week that "some in Britain still have illusions".

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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Sat May 06, 2017 8:24 pm

I agree with the point of Norway. I think we should look at that for the short term. To avoid a situation where we leave with no Deal. However I don't think we will even get to the negotiation point as we won't even agree a financial settlement in the next two years.

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Meep
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PostRe: Brexit
by Meep » Sat May 06, 2017 8:45 pm

It is pointless. Any PM acting in the national interest fallowing in the wake of the referendum result would be desperately attempting to reconcile people to the Norway option, it's the only thing realistically achievable with the EU in the limited timespan allowed that protects our existing trading arrangements. Unfortunately, May is a Conservative and to be a Conservative is to spend one's life wrestling for control within the party with an endless line of pretenders and back stabbers whilst trying to appease a braying mob of ideological zealots who would massively damage the electability of the entire party if they ever got into power (if May wants a reminder of what that might look like she need only to look to the opposite benches). So, instead of acting in the national interest she is game playing to keep the tories in power by appeasing the hard right (which previously manifested in UKIP).

It may look like the Conservatives are going full steam ahead at the moment but they are only heading for a train crash. I would ordinarily rejoice at this prospect as they are a mean spirited, small minded party that delights in trading the welfare of citizens and social cohesion for the paltry rewards of a few tax cuts but in this instance we are all along for the ride and will share in any disaster they bring.

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Grumpy David
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PostRe: Brexit
by Grumpy David » Sun May 07, 2017 11:05 am



It's quite amusing that the one instance where sticking to his principles would have matched the electorate, Corbyn chose to go against them.

What would have happened if the official labour stance was voting leave rather than the no strong feeling either way message. Maybe they'd have picked up that Red UKIP voter bloc?

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Sun May 07, 2017 11:23 am

If the official Labour stance was the same as Corbyn's view then the party would have torn itself apart even more than it already has. Most Labour MPs are pro EU.

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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Sun May 07, 2017 11:41 am

Well when it comes to the Euro, the UK (and in particular Gordon Brown) history proved us to be on the right side of it, when it comes to unemployment in the EU outside of Germany and the UK, Jeremy Corbyn and others were again proved correct. Only time itself will now prove whether we were on the right side once more when it comes to leaving it completely.

It's been a constant, Macron being the most recent, to state the 'EU has to reform, it has to change' and year in and year out it never does.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Sun May 07, 2017 1:29 pm


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Denster
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PostRe: Brexit
by Denster » Sun May 07, 2017 10:53 pm

Meep wrote:It is pointless. Any PM acting in the national interest fallowing in the wake of the referendum result would be desperately attempting to reconcile people to the Norway option, it's the only thing realistically achievable with the EU in the limited timespan allowed that protects our existing trading arrangements. Unfortunately, May is a Conservative and to be a Conservative is to spend one's life wrestling for control within the party with an endless line of pretenders and back stabbers whilst trying to appease a braying mob of ideological zealots who would massively damage the electability of the entire party if they ever got into power (if May wants a reminder of what that might look like she need only to look to the opposite benches). So, instead of acting in the national interest she is game playing to keep the tories in power by appeasing the hard right (which previously manifested in UKIP).

It may look like the Conservatives are going full steam ahead at the moment but they are only heading for a train crash. I would ordinarily rejoice at this prospect as they are a mean spirited, small minded party that delights in trading the welfare of citizens and social cohesion for the paltry rewards of a few tax cuts but in this instance we are all along for the ride and will share in any disaster they bring.



Enough dancing around - tell us what you really think about the Tories.

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massimo
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PostRe: Brexit
by massimo » Mon May 08, 2017 2:15 am



The more I read the more my stomach was churning. Horrifying reading.

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Rightey
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PostRe: Brexit
by Rightey » Mon May 08, 2017 9:34 pm



That was a great article, thanks for sharing!

Pretty terrifying what's going on with these private intel companies that are now able to give such small actors such immense power. :dread:

Pelloki on ghosts wrote:Just start masturbating furiously. That'll make them go away.
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massimo
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PostRe: Brexit
by massimo » Tue May 09, 2017 6:58 pm

Rightey wrote:


That was a great article, thanks for sharing!

Pretty terrifying what's going on with these private intel companies that are now able to give such small actors such immense power. :dread:

I've since deleted my barely used Facebook account and am going to create a new more anonymous twitter account. Pass me the tinfoil.


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