Brexit

Rex Kramer wrote:Have they never seen David Davies or Liam Fox before?

Dead Ringers recent David Davis bits have been outstanding




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jawafour wrote:

Photek wrote:Dude, we just want you to have an actual opinion rather than post what is essentially meaningless posts with nothing to say. You can say all you want but 50.1% of you sways one way or the other...nobody, especially on Brexit can hold a 50/50 point of view if you can even call it that...

Photek, I feel that you merely want to make a judgement to satisfy your own thinking. In your eyes, people who voted one way are "good" and people who voted the other way are "bad"... I get the impression that these categories would then be "proof" that our discussions are "right" or "wrong". We're now at a stage where we have passed that point and the UK has to create agreements with other countries and areas; no-one is going to be in full agreement with every aspect.

I'm basing my opinion on facts and financial experts, I don't like that you're insinuating I've pulled my opinion out of my arse to 'satisfy my own thinking'.

jawafour wrote:DML, Photek... it feels like you only want to read posts that occupy the extreme ends of the spectrum. I have already recognised the binary verdict of the referendum, but now that we have passed that point I would be surprised if folk liked everything - or disliked everything - about the multiple issues that will be a part of the upcoming deals and agreements.

At the moment, with the government we have at the moment, what is there for Remain supporters to like or get behind?

You said before that you liked to see actual statements and facts, but when it comes to Brexit deals you seem happy to say “well I am sure it will be fine”, “it won’t be all bad”, “I am sure we will get deals”. None of those things are facts.

At the moment all Remainers can see is that we are being dragged out of the EU against our will, that our government appears to be horribly unprepared for even the most basic of negotiations, that our rights to free movement are going to be torn up and that we are all going to become poorer as a result of all this.

What is there for us to like about things?

As I said yesterday, it is hard to get an idea on what you believe as you will not tell us what way you voted, you like to sit on the fence on all of the issues and you seem positive about pretty much everything. That’s all fine, it’s up to you, but it is frustrating when you are fearing for your and your families future to see somebody saying “Ahh well, I am sure it will all turn out ok eventually”.

jawafour wrote:We're now at a stage where we have passed that point and the UK has to create agreements with other countries and areas; no-one is going to be in full agreement with every aspect.

That’s not strictly true. The whole thing could still be undone (I don’t think it will, but it could be).

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jawafour wrote:

Photek wrote:I'm basing my opinion on facts and financial experts, I don't like that you're insinuating I've pulled my opinion out of my arse to 'satisfy my own thinking'.

Photek, you are the one who has pushed the point for binary thinking. I'm more than willing - and have done so - to look at differing sides of the coin. Your only concern seems to have been "which way I swayed"... as if the answer to that would somehow prove that my posts have been right or wrong.

What are you on about 'binary thinking'? I base my opinion on facts and/or experts, if they get it wrong ill change my opinion accordingly. This is getting like global warming but instead of 99% of the world scientists in agreement its 99% of Europe and UK financial experts.

Photek wrote:

jawafour wrote:

Photek wrote:I'm basing my opinion on facts and financial experts, I don't like that you're insinuating I've pulled my opinion out of my arse to 'satisfy my own thinking'.

Photek, you are the one who has pushed the point for binary thinking. I'm more than willing - and have done so - to look at differing sides of the coin. Your only concern seems to have been "which way I swayed"... as if the answer to that would somehow prove that my posts have been right or wrong.

What are you on about 'binary thinking'? I base my opinion on facts and/or experts, if they get it wrong ill change my opinion accordingly. This is getting like global warming but instead of 99% of the world scientists in agreement its 99% of Europe and UK financial experts.

He is saying that it is "binary" thinking because people only see it as bad or good. No middle ground, it is either bad or good.

Jawa sees it having good parts and bad parts. Or in other words, the UK will suffer in some areas but do better in others.

I disagree with him, but I understand what he means by binary thinking on this issue.

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I don't want to fight Jawa, just fence sitting folk trigger me.

Guys, having seen the abusive comments directed towards me in the Feedback/Brexiquette thread under an assumed monicker, I shall no longer be participating in this discussion.

jawa

That's out of order. Someone needs a word.

jawafour wrote:For your first point, Moggy, I would see that there is a big opportunity for Remain supporters to put pressure on the government in terms of the movement of people aspect. It is unlikely that any deal will be struck with the EU without that area being modified; how much so could be a key part of the negotiations. Perhaps the right pressure in the right places could encourage the government to become far more flexible.

That’s not going to happen though.

The majority of the media are either quiet on the issue or are full fledged Brexit supporting.

The leader of the opposition wants hard Brexit.

We have no voice and no way of making our voices heard.

As for the "I think things will all turn out okay eventually" part, I have not been totally blinded by the possibilities; I have indicated several times that I expect the negotiations to be tough and that, especially in the short term, I think times will be hard. But, yes, I do hold a degree of optimism. None of us can really make a call until we see what he agreements are and get a feel for the impacts... positive and negative.

None of us can predict the future, that’s true. But all the available evidence suggests it will be economically harmful. Even the Leavers are now starting to say “well we will be poorer but it is worth it”.

The best deal was the one we had, any others are going to be a poor imitation.

And even if we end up with a next to impossible great deal, it still isn’t worth the loss of rights and freedoms that we are going to suffer.

jawafour wrote:Guys, having seen the abusive comments directed towards me in the Feedback/Brexiquette thread under an assumed monicker, I shall no longer be participating in this discussion.

jawa

Jawafive (whoever it is) used to be cool, but has gone too far there.

There's no need to stop posting because one person acted a dick though.

So I can whiteknight Jawa?

Thank strawberry float for that. It was really hard defending Hitler and Chairman Mao. The atrocities made it very difficult.

Jawa, you clearly voted Leave, so why are you still pretending you didn't? Were getting more political talk from you than we do actual politicians!

DML wrote:Jawa, you clearly voted Leave, so why are you still pretending you didn't? Were getting more political talk from you than we do actual politicians!

Who cares at this point? It's done now. The world is a mess. I love blaming the idiotic voters but ultimately it's the people in power who have strawberry floated us. We're doomed.

[hitbox][/hitbox]

Blue Eyes wrote:

DML wrote:Jawa, you clearly voted Leave, so why are you still pretending you didn't? Were getting more political talk from you than we do actual politicians!

Who cares at this point? It's done now. The world is a mess. I love blaming the idiotic voters but ultimately it's the people in power who have strawberry floated us. We're doomed.

I'm not so sure it is done. At this point Hard Brexit is probably virtually impossible. Trump could go, May could go, lots could still happen. I'm just frustrated that something so illogical has been voted through. I'm several months on and I honestly don't understand the arguments even now...even if you are racist I don't! I at least understand the reasons someone might vote Tory. The idea 52% who came out for this vote voted this way is still utterly mind-boggling.

I would suggest why Jawa won't be drawn on his position is because fighting the Leave side is virtually impossible as there are virtually no facts to back it up. Other than 'potential'. I could 'potentially' win the lottery....but it's unlikely to happen isn't it?

The facts are so hopelessly in favour of remain now you kind of have to take on a Sean Spicer role to suggest Brexit us likely to succeed.

So, our gay PM is heading up to meet the homophobic & anti gay marriage DUP in Belfast to discuss the future of the border today.

He ought to turn up dressed like Elton John circa 1974 and really rub it in.