Brexit

I always felt it would go this way.
We'd flail about for a while and look like idiots and then at the last minute get the job done and come out of it with an ok (not great or terrible but ok) result that everyone can moan about.

I voted to stay in but I have a feeling the end result will be kind of fine in a milk is kind of fine as a drink kind of way.

Looking increasingly like the UK will end up tethered to the EU without any vote or veto in the EU.

I don't know why they don't just formerly stay inside the customs union because that seems to be the de facto agreement. What we have now is flimsy language designed to hide the fact that the Brexiteers have been forced to fold like a cheap pack of cards and save them some face. They don't deserve to save face.

And they can't even really claim this provides any real certainty for businesses when Gove keeps harping on about how a future government doesn't have to stick to the deal.

The Mail were selling by it as a win for May because the EU wanted 100 billion and its ended up as 35-40. The ES meanwhile were patting themselves on the back because they were apparently the one that broke the story on it being 40ish many months ago.

The Mail also set their sights on Sadiq Khan today, with a double page hit job (London is crumbling under his watch, he's celebrity obsessed, he's off gallivanting in India, if he becomes Labour leader then they'll be out of power for another ten years).

DML wrote:

captain red dog wrote:The problem with this deal is that you get none of the benefits of being in the EU and none of the benefits of being outside of the EU. It locks the UK into a long economic decline with no ability or flexibility to change that with new trade deals or state aid to bail out industry etc.

If there was a referendum on this deal or continued membership, remain would win no question. I almost wonder if that is the intention. If May has a cabinet impasse, she could just put the decision into the hands of the public.

This was always likely to be the deal. Hence why we all voted against it! You can apologise anytime you like.

If the Tories had won a majority (not that I wanted that), do you still think this would have been the deal?

I also think if Labour were in government the deal would be different.

So no, I won't apologise for a bad deal agreed by a poor and weak government. But thanks for bringing the thread back to the petty bickering.

The deal was always going to be gooseberry fool, but had their been a government that did any sort of planning and preparation it probably wouldn't have taken as long or been quite so bad.

captain red dog wrote:If the Tories had won a majority (not that I wanted that), do you still think this would have been the deal?

Pretty much. I guess Northern Ireland/the Good Friday Agreement may have been screwed with a Tory majority, but otherwise it’d be much the same.

The EU don’t give a gooseberry fool how strong a grip on Parliament the UK government has. It’s pretty irrelevant to them, they hold all the cards and will do nothing that doesn’t help their member states. That’s why it’s good to be part of a powerful club, rather than being on your own.

I also think if Labour were in government the deal would be different.

Maybe, but it’s impossible to say what it would be under Labour. Corbyn doesn’t seem to have a clue what he wants.

Edit: Also when you voted Leave, you knew it would be a Tory government that would take us through Brexit. Cameron had another 4 years to go and nobody really believed then that there would be an early election. What a Labour government might or might not have done is irrelevant.

So no, I won't apologise for a bad deal agreed by a poor and weak government. But thanks for bringing the thread back to the petty bickering.

You shouldn’t have to apologise, but you should take responsibility for your vote. The present situation is as a direct result of the Leave vote. Leavers can keep blaming the EU, Remainers and the Tories, but it’d be nice if you actually took responsibility rather than passing the buck to others.

twitter.com/hendopolis/status/939620275355836416

We've got the EU over a barrel?

I’m struggling to understand why the express would be happy with this deal. The express are even more hard Brexit than the mail. How on Earth they would believe that we now have the EU over a barrel is beyond me.

captain red dog wrote:

DML wrote:

captain red dog wrote:The problem with this deal is that you get none of the benefits of being in the EU and none of the benefits of being outside of the EU. It locks the UK into a long economic decline with no ability or flexibility to change that with new trade deals or state aid to bail out industry etc.

If there was a referendum on this deal or continued membership, remain would win no question. I almost wonder if that is the intention. If May has a cabinet impasse, she could just put the decision into the hands of the public.

This was always likely to be the deal. Hence why we all voted against it! You can apologise anytime you like.

If the Tories had won a majority (not that I wanted that), do you still think this would have been the deal?

I also think if Labour were in government the deal would be different.

So no, I won't apologise for a bad deal agreed by a poor and weak government. But thanks for bringing the thread back to the petty bickering.

Petty bickering?

We are all poorer for your vote. You are lucky I don't swear at you.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:I’m struggling to understand why the express would be happy with this deal. The express are even more hard Brexit than the mail. How on Earth they would believe that we now have the EU over a barrel is beyond me.

Because even their readership were beginning to realise what a shitshow this all was. The Express desperately needed something, anything, that they could spin as a victory to keep the charade going.

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:

captain red dog wrote:If the Tories had won a majority (not that I wanted that), do you still think this would have been the deal?

Pretty much. I guess Northern Ireland/the Good Friday Agreement may have been screwed with a Tory majority, but otherwise it’d be much the same.

The EU don’t give a gooseberry fool how strong a grip on Parliament the UK government has. It’s pretty irrelevant to them, they hold all the cards and will do nothing that doesn’t help their member states. That’s why it’s good to be part of a powerful club, rather than being on your own.

I also think if Labour were in government the deal would be different.

Maybe, but it’s impossible to say what it would be under Labour. Corbyn doesn’t seem to have a clue what he wants.

Edit: Also when you voted Leave, you knew it would be a Tory government that would take us through Brexit. Cameron had another 4 years to go and nobody really believed then that there would be an early election. What a Labour government might or might not have done is irrelevant.

So no, I won't apologise for a bad deal agreed by a poor and weak government. But thanks for bringing the thread back to the petty bickering.

You shouldn’t have to apologise, but you should take responsibility for your vote. The present situation is as a direct result of the Leave vote. Leavers can keep blaming the EU, Remainers and the Tories, but it’d be nice if you actually took responsibility rather than passing the buck to others.

How would someone who voted leave actually take responsibility? What could they do?

The people who are responsible are not those who voted, but those who allowed a vote to happen with no plan in place in the event that leave won the vote. For a government to allow this to happen is something akin to rolling dice, which is not something that should be allowed if you are supposed to be leading a country.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... eal-for-uk

Lastpostamorph wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:I’m struggling to understand why the express would be happy with this deal. The express are even more hard Brexit than the mail. How on Earth they would believe that we now have the EU over a barrel is beyond me.

Because even their readership were beginning to realise what a shitshow this all was. The Express desperately needed something, anything, that they could spin as a victory to keep the charade going.

Are they, I get the impression that most of those who believed in a hard Brexit still do and will just blame the government for not pushing it through. After all they are the ones who made comments along the lines of leave no matter the cost and decades of financial pain will be worth it in the end etc.. however Ive met a few who were perhaps undecided but still voted out or wanted Brexit but to remain in the single market who have regretted their decision and would now vote to remain.

KK wrote:

twitter.com/hendopolis/status/939620275355836416

What the actual strawberry float?!

Death's Head wrote:How would someone who voted leave actually take responsibility? What could they do?

There’s two separate questions there.

1. By taking responsibility, I mean owning up to what they have done, rather than passing the blame on

“Oh it’s remoaners fault for talking the country down”

“It’s the EU’s fault for bullying us”

“It’s the weak Tory government selling us out cheaply”

Anybody that voted Leave, against all the warnings, should stop hiding behind bullshit excuses and just take some damn responsibility for the decision that they made.

2. What could they do? Well an individual Leave voter can’t do a lot. Hopefully they can learn from the situation and avoid making similar mistakes in future.

Leavers as a whole though? They can do a great deal. If a large proportion of them changed their minds and the opinion polls wildly swung away from Leave, then this whole sorry mess could be undone.

Unlikely to happen, but that’s something that they could do other than just saying “oh it’s the Tories fault, Labour would have done Brexit much better”

The people who are responsible are not those who voted,

Yes they are. They ignored all the warnings and actively voted for this. If you wash in gooseberry fool, don’t blame other people if you stink of gooseberry fool afterwards.

but those who allowed a vote to happen with no plan in place in the event that leave won the vote. For a government to allow this to happen is something akin to rolling dice, which is not something that should be allowed if you are supposed to be leading a country.

Agreed. Cameron was a weak fool.

But Leave voters are just as responsible for this, nobody forced them to vote the way they did.

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:Yes they are. They ignored all the warnings and actively voted for this. If you wash in gooseberry fool, don’t blame other people if you stink of gooseberry fool afterwards.

No, at best they are partially responsible but the majority of the blame has to reside with the government for allowing a vote to be taken without having a clear plan in place for both options. A responsible government simply would not have allowed the vote to go ahead without understanding what needed to be done in the event that leave was voted for. Any government voted in is responsible for leading the country, they can't just say it is not our fault, will of the people etc when they are the one that created the situation.

Death's Head wrote:

Partridge Iciclebubbles wrote:Yes they are. They ignored all the warnings and actively voted for this. If you wash in gooseberry fool, don’t blame other people if you stink of gooseberry fool afterwards.

No, at best they are partially responsible but the majority of the blame has to reside with the government for allowing a vote to be taken without having a clear plan in place for both options. A responsible government simply would not have allowed the vote to go ahead without understanding what needed to be done in the event that leave was voted for. Any government voted in is responsible for leading the country, they can't just say it is not our fault, will of the people etc when they are the one that created the situation.

We’ll have to disagree there. Voters voted for the Tories who had a manifesto promise of a referendum. Voters voted in the referendum.

I agree that the government is to blame. But I also think the voters have an equal share in that blame.

I got hit by a bus the other day, I walked out in the road without looking, but is isn't my fault it is the council, they shouldnt allow me the option to walk out into the road.

Just because you get the right to do something doesn't means you should or that if you do the outcome isn't your fault.

Yea the previous government gave you the option to vote for this gooseberry fool show but you actually chose to vote for it, picking this as a result. You could have chosen not to but you didn't.

The voters are responsible for the outcome of a referendum that's the point of a direct democracy exercise.