Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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captain red dog
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PostRe: Brexit
by captain red dog » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:07 am

The people on here that voted Leave didn't do so on the basis of deporting legal EU migrants or intentionally borking the economy any more than Blair voters wanted to destroy the middle east or Lib Dems voters wanted to murder the poor.

I'd also point out that we aren't deporting any legal EU nationals and the economy hasn't tanked yet so what exactly are we blaming leave voters for? Is this the minority report of voter blaming now?

If you want to take that attitude then fine but be consistent and I'd like an acceptance of blame from anyone in here who voted Lib Dem in 2010 for the people that died because of the bedroom tax and for my mates disabled daughter having her benefits cut. Let's see where that gets us.

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Pancake
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PostRe: Brexit
by Pancake » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:08 am

Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:It's interesting to me that nobody here seems to feel such raw anger at those that voted in Tony Blair and by association backed his viscous, murderous assault on the middle east (regretfully I am one of those voters), or holds a similar grudge against people who voted for the Lib Dems only to see them go into coalition with the Tories and inflict crippling austerity onto the poor (fortunately I wasn't one of those voters).


Did you continue to vote Labour while Blair was in power and after the Iraq invasion?

The reason nobody in this thread is angry about Blair or the Lib Dems is because this is a Brexit thread, not an Iraq War or ConDem coalition thread.

Also, those two things are in the past, Brexit is happening now.

This is the first occasion on Grcade I can remember where people have been blamed for things that haven't happened yet based on voting with the best intentions.

I don't blame voters for Blairs murderous assault on Muslims, and I don't blame voters for the Lib Dems assault on the poor. Why is it suddenly acceptable to blame people for Brexit scenarios which haven't happened yet?

By all means continue to demonise people on here, but it won't lead to any kind of productive discussion or debate. What do you expect Denster to do, apologise for deportations that haven't happened or that he thinks are very unlikely to happen?


The strawberry float are you talking about? My post didn’t demonise anyone, it explained why people in this thread are not talking about Blair and the LibDems. I didn’t take a pop at anyone or even mention Denster.

It almost sounds like you are in full on defence mode because you know your position is not going to be on the right side of history. “YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT BLAIR!!” and “DON’T DEMONISE DENNY” have nothing to do with the fact that a so called left wing voter like yourself has voted and supports making people poorer, under a hard right government and with the distinct possibility of people partners and loved ones getting deported. There is justifiable fear and anger around that.


I don't think his demonising comment was referring to you.

At CRD: the Brexit vote is different to Blair and the Lib Dems since it was a straight yes/no vote with a definite outcome.

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Errkal
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PostRe: Brexit
by Errkal » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:11 am

People voting Lib Dem voted for Lib Dem policies, they didn't vote for what the coalition did.

Parliament is a representative democracy, that means there is a disconnect between what is done and the voter and it means that the people to blame for gooseberry fool banana split policies are the party and politicians.

Brexit was a direct democracy exercise, they voted for Brexit without any consideration of what that was, is, should be, could be or will be, and so anything that happens is their fault.

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PostRe: Brexit
by That » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:11 am

For what it's worth (re: discussion a few posts ago) I get along well with Denster and don't feel slighted by him.

I do feel from those that voted to leave that there might be... I don't know, it's hard to put in words, but maybe a sense of understanding that since they won they need to perhaps take ownership of the consequences and justify them to the rest of us.

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Brexit
by captain red dog » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:12 am

Pancake wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:It's interesting to me that nobody here seems to feel such raw anger at those that voted in Tony Blair and by association backed his viscous, murderous assault on the middle east (regretfully I am one of those voters), or holds a similar grudge against people who voted for the Lib Dems only to see them go into coalition with the Tories and inflict crippling austerity onto the poor (fortunately I wasn't one of those voters).


Did you continue to vote Labour while Blair was in power and after the Iraq invasion?

The reason nobody in this thread is angry about Blair or the Lib Dems is because this is a Brexit thread, not an Iraq War or ConDem coalition thread.

Also, those two things are in the past, Brexit is happening now.

This is the first occasion on Grcade I can remember where people have been blamed for things that haven't happened yet based on voting with the best intentions.

I don't blame voters for Blairs murderous assault on Muslims, and I don't blame voters for the Lib Dems assault on the poor. Why is it suddenly acceptable to blame people for Brexit scenarios which haven't happened yet?

By all means continue to demonise people on here, but it won't lead to any kind of productive discussion or debate. What do you expect Denster to do, apologise for deportations that haven't happened or that he thinks are very unlikely to happen?


The strawberry float are you talking about? My post didn’t demonise anyone, it explained why people in this thread are not talking about Blair and the LibDems. I didn’t take a pop at anyone or even mention Denster.

It almost sounds like you are in full on defence mode because you know your position is not going to be on the right side of history. “YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT BLAIR!!” and “DON’T DEMONISE DENNY” have nothing to do with the fact that a so called left wing voter like yourself has voted and supports making people poorer, under a hard right government and with the distinct possibility of people partners and loved ones getting deported. There is justifiable fear and anger around that.


I don't think his demonising comment was referring to you.

At CRD: the Brexit vote is different to Blair and the Lib Dems since it was a straight yes/no vote with a definite outcome.

A definite outcome in what respect? It will lead us to leave the EU but nobody knows what the economic impact will be in 5, 10, 20 or 50 years. Nobody voted Brexit thinking "hey let's tank the economy".

And yep, the demonise comment was not aimed at you Moggy. It was a general term in defence of how I feel Denny has been treated these last few pages.

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Brexit
by captain red dog » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:14 am

Errkal wrote:People voting Lib Dem voted for Lib Dem policies, they didn't vote for what the coalition did.

Parliament is a representative democracy, that means there is a disconnect between what is done and the voter and it means that the people to blame for gooseberry fool banana split policies are the party and politicians.

Brexit was a direct democracy exercise, they voted for Brexit without any consideration of what that was, is, should be, could be or will be, and so anything that happens is their fault.

So every economic disaster across the eurozone since we joined the EU can be blamed on people that voted to join in the 70s?

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PostRe: Brexit
by Tafdolphin » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:14 am

captain red dog wrote:The people on here that voted Leave didn't do so on the basis of deporting legal EU migrants or intentionally borking the economy any more than Blair voters wanted to destroy the middle east or Lib Dems voters wanted to murder the poor.


Lucien has straight up admitted he knew Brexit would be bad for the economy.

Lucien wrote:To answer your question: I believe staying in the EU was best for the UK's economy (for the foreseeable future) and thought that before voting to leave. It is fair you believe that too, and most economists did argue that.


As for this:

captain red dog wrote:I'd also out that we aren't deporting any legal EU nationals and the economy hasn't tanked yet so what exactly are we blaming leave voters for? Is this the minority report of voter blaming now?

Deporting EU nationals:

Brexit: Deportations of EU citizens soar since referendum

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 35266.html

EU nationals deportation letters an 'unfortunate error', says May

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... _clipboard

EU citizen confronts Theresa May telling her: 'I'm about to get deported'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 41686.html

Economy

Brexit: UK on course for even deeper economic slowdown than expected

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 45841.html

LSE: Brexit and the UKEconomy

It is too soon to say whether anticipation of Brexit will cause an investment slowdown. But there is increasing evidence of firms planning to move jobs out of the UK because of Brexit, particularly in the finance industry, where banks such as JPMorgan and Deutsche Bank have already warned that they plan to move staff away from London (Financial Times, 2017).

Because GDP growth has not declined since the referendum, it is tempting to conclude that Brexit is yet to have an economic impact. But this would be wrong. Brexit has already lowered UK living standards through its effect on the value of the pound. At the end of April 2017, sterling was 13% lower against the US dollar and 9% lower against the euro than on the day of the referendum (see Figure 2).

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/ea040.pdf

If you are unwilling/refuse to see the constant cavalcade of awful news coming out of the City, Europe and...pretty much everywhere that's your problem. Brexit, despite not having happened yet, has hugely affected our nation's economic and social standing.

If you want to take that attitude then fine but be consistent and I'd like an acceptance of blame from anyone in here who voted Lib Dem in 2010 for the people that died because of the bedroom tax and for my mates disabled daughter having her benefits cut. Let's see where that gets us.


Again. People who voted Lib Dem =/= people voting for bedroom tax. Brexit was, as has been pointed out to you several times, a direct democratic vote on policy. You have so far quoted two General Elections, which are absolutely not the same thing.

Last edited by Tafdolphin on Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:56 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Errkal
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PostRe: Brexit
by Errkal » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:24 am

captain red dog wrote:
Errkal wrote:People voting Lib Dem voted for Lib Dem policies, they didn't vote for what the coalition did.

Parliament is a representative democracy, that means there is a disconnect between what is done and the voter and it means that the people to blame for gooseberry fool banana split policies are the party and politicians.

Brexit was a direct democracy exercise, they voted for Brexit without any consideration of what that was, is, should be, could be or will be, and so anything that happens is their fault.

So every economic disaster across the eurozone since we joined the EU can be blamed on people that voted to join in the 70s?


No.
In the same way that the war in Iraq isn't the fault which ever king started Parliament.

Seen as the EU parliament is elected it and there have been elections since the 1970's it would be the result of those votes, but seen as it is again representative democracy not direct it isn't directly the fault of the voter as they vote for a party with a set of views then the Parliament gets made up of representatives who then make the decisions.

I would also suspect in a number of cases that the fault lies with the local government not just the EU.

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Denster
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PostRe: Brexit
by Denster » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:46 am

Tafdolphin wrote:EDIT: Not worth it.

Evidently Labour agree.
They are not debating the Brexit vote at their conference.

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Errkal
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PostRe: Brexit
by Errkal » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:46 am

Denster wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:EDIT: Not worth it.

Evidently Labour agree.
They are not debating the Brexit vote at their conference.

Bloody ridiculous they aren't seen as it is a massive thing, but I get why Corbyn doesn't want to as he would find his party has a very very different view to him.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Tafdolphin » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:49 am

Any lingering doubt that Corbyn is a Leaver is long since gone. I voted Labour as a protest vote and do not regret it, but Corbyn needs to strawberry float the strawberry float off.

Last edited by Tafdolphin on Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DML
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PostRe: Brexit
by DML » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:50 am

captain red dog wrote:It's interesting to me that nobody here seems to feel such raw anger at those that voted in Tony Blair and by association backed his viscous, murderous assault on the middle east (regretfully I am one of those voters), or holds a similar grudge against people who voted for the Lib Dems only to see them go into coalition with the Tories and inflict crippling austerity onto the poor (fortunately I wasn't one of those voters).

People on these forums seem to have voted with the best intentions in mind and I think we should stick to that basic premise before getting hostile with people. Denster actually voted to Remain didn't he?


I did, but how are the Tories not mainly responsible for that? They were the party with the power to inflict austerity after all! That narrative is so stupid.

They absolutely had their part to play, but to word it like they were the most responsible is absolutely ridiculous.

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Denster
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PostRe: Brexit
by Denster » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:51 am

It's exactly that reason it should be debated. Openly.

Priceless.

Both parties infighting like cats in a sack.

Yet McConnell or Corbyn or whoever have put a big 'Nothing to see here' sign in front of their sack.

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DML
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PostRe: Brexit
by DML » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:55 am

Also worth adding for a bit of balance that this whole Labour conference thing is turning into a bit of a shitshow. It does show how muddled they are, and why I couldnt vote for them last time out.

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Pancake
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PostRe: Brexit
by Pancake » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:56 am

captain red dog wrote:A definite outcome in what respect? It will lead us to leave the EU but nobody knows what the economic impact will be in 5, 10, 20 or 50 years. Nobody voted Brexit thinking "hey let's tank the economy".

A definite outcome in the sense that a win for leave meant leaving the EU. The resulting uncertainty is the cause of much anxiety and those directly affected feel aggrieved.

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Denster
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PostRe: Brexit
by Denster » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:57 am

Karl wrote:For what it's worth (re: discussion a few posts ago) I get along well with Denster and don't feel slighted by him.

I do feel from those that voted to leave that there might be... I don't know, it's hard to put in words, but maybe a sense of understanding that since they won they need to perhaps take ownership of the consequences and justify them to the rest of us.

Yes. Rather than 'we won we won. Ha ha ha.'

Glowy69
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PostRe: Brexit
by Glowy69 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:03 pm

I see the people that voted leave still havent answered any of the question or concerns that Karl asked yesterday. People voted leave, and were told, whether true or not by the remain team that it would be bad for the economy, so the people that voted leave knew of this and still chose to vote that way anyway.

Fabian Delph is a banana split.

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Benzin
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PostRe: Brexit
by Benzin » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:16 pm

That the Labour conference doesn't have any Brexit discussion is another reason why I really don't like Corbyn... It's very typical politics that, and does nothing to aid anyone in the slightest...

Corazon de Leon

PostRe: Brexit
by Corazon de Leon » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:24 pm

Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:It's interesting to me that nobody here seems to feel such raw anger at those that voted in Tony Blair and by association backed his viscous, murderous assault on the middle east (regretfully I am one of those voters), or holds a similar grudge against people who voted for the Lib Dems only to see them go into coalition with the Tories and inflict crippling austerity onto the poor (fortunately I wasn't one of those voters).


Did you continue to vote Labour while Blair was in power and after the Iraq invasion?

The reason nobody in this thread is angry about Blair or the Lib Dems is because this is a Brexit thread, not an Iraq War or ConDem coalition thread.

Also, those two things are in the past, Brexit is happening now.

This is the first occasion on Grcade I can remember where people have been blamed for things that haven't happened yet based on voting with the best intentions.

I don't blame voters for Blairs murderous assault on Muslims, and I don't blame voters for the Lib Dems assault on the poor. Why is it suddenly acceptable to blame people for Brexit scenarios which haven't happened yet?

By all means continue to demonise people on here, but it won't lead to any kind of productive discussion or debate. What do you expect Denster to do, apologise for deportations that haven't happened or that he thinks are very unlikely to happen?


The strawberry float are you talking about? My post didn’t demonise anyone, it explained why people in this thread are not talking about Blair and the LibDems. I didn’t take a pop at anyone or even mention Denster.

It almost sounds like you are in full on defence mode because you know your position is not going to be on the right side of history. “YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT BLAIR!!” and “DON’T DEMONISE DENNY” have nothing to do with the fact that a so called left wing voter like yourself has voted and supports making people poorer, under a hard right government and with the distinct possibility of people partners and loved ones getting deported. There is justifiable fear and anger around that.


This is a distinct worry for us - the suggested cracking down on immigration from both within and outwith the EU following Brexit raises the possibility that my partner could be ejected from the country at the end of her five year visa. It's not likely, as she's from within the Commonwealth, but not out of the question either.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:37 pm

Corazon de Leon wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:It's interesting to me that nobody here seems to feel such raw anger at those that voted in Tony Blair and by association backed his viscous, murderous assault on the middle east (regretfully I am one of those voters), or holds a similar grudge against people who voted for the Lib Dems only to see them go into coalition with the Tories and inflict crippling austerity onto the poor (fortunately I wasn't one of those voters).


Did you continue to vote Labour while Blair was in power and after the Iraq invasion?

The reason nobody in this thread is angry about Blair or the Lib Dems is because this is a Brexit thread, not an Iraq War or ConDem coalition thread.

Also, those two things are in the past, Brexit is happening now.

This is the first occasion on Grcade I can remember where people have been blamed for things that haven't happened yet based on voting with the best intentions.

I don't blame voters for Blairs murderous assault on Muslims, and I don't blame voters for the Lib Dems assault on the poor. Why is it suddenly acceptable to blame people for Brexit scenarios which haven't happened yet?

By all means continue to demonise people on here, but it won't lead to any kind of productive discussion or debate. What do you expect Denster to do, apologise for deportations that haven't happened or that he thinks are very unlikely to happen?


The strawberry float are you talking about? My post didn’t demonise anyone, it explained why people in this thread are not talking about Blair and the LibDems. I didn’t take a pop at anyone or even mention Denster.

It almost sounds like you are in full on defence mode because you know your position is not going to be on the right side of history. “YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT BLAIR!!” and “DON’T DEMONISE DENNY” have nothing to do with the fact that a so called left wing voter like yourself has voted and supports making people poorer, under a hard right government and with the distinct possibility of people partners and loved ones getting deported. There is justifiable fear and anger around that.


This is a distinct worry for us - the suggested cracking down on immigration from both within and outwith the EU following Brexit raises the possibility that my partner could be ejected from the country at the end of her five year visa. It's not likely, as she's from within the Commonwealth, but not out of the question either.


Yes but you can’t blame Leave voters for that as immigration wasn’t one of the biggest reasons that Leavers held up.....oh wait.


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