Brexit

PostRe: Brexit by **Moggy** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:19 pm

Karl wrote:There's some timeline out there in the multiverse where May went "Look! Even Farage thinks we should have one! So I'm announcing it today."

But it wasn't this one.

For strawberry float's sake.

The bizarre thing is that a second referendum (that Remain won) would solve a huge amount of the problems she has.

I guess though that she is not going to take the risk, especially after her snap election disaster. If she called a second referendum, then she would instantly be flip flopping back to the Remain position, which would be terrible for Remain as she is unpopular (see the number of people that say they voted out “to stick two fingers up at Cameron!!!!”). Lose the referendum and she would be forced out, just like Cameron was. Win the referendum and people would be pointing out that she’s flip flopped between the two camps a little too often, I’d imagine she would take that though if she was sure of winning, but that doubt in her mind will be enough to stop her.

Basically she is forced to carry on this course that she knows will be a total disaster. And we are all along for the ride.

PostRe: Brexit by **captain red dog** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:28 pm

I'd back another referendum to help settle the issue. I think Leave would still win, and not because I'd vote leave. People have become so entrenched on either side that I don't see much movement at all. All of the people I know who voted Remain are still passionately Remain and all of the people I know that voted Leave are still passionately Leavers.

PostRe: Brexit by KK » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:34 pm

Lets say the UK did go back to the polls under whatever deal the Tories come up with, what do you put it up against? If it fails does the country still leave with no deal at all and fall onto WTO rules? Do we go back to the EU to try and negotiate? Do we remain under the same rules that apply now? Can we bring back David Cameron's deal if we Remain?

I don't know under what guise you'd run a second referendum. Loads of money again, and I think you'd end up with the exact same outcome but in reverse (Remain would win by a small margin) therefore creating some sort of farcical 1 all draw.

We know the EU would rip up Article 50, but whether they'd be open to putting Cameron's deal back on the table is another matter. I think there is now room to get more out of the EU than Cameron got if we were to Remain, but I don't know how you work your way back to that point.

But then you can't properly negotiate with the EU if they believed the UK was going to run another referendum because then you would obviously give the UK a bad deal or top load Remain.

captain red dog wrote:I'd back another referendum to help settle the issue. I think Leave would still win, and not because I'd vote leave. People have become so entrenched on either side that I don't see much movement at all. All of the people I know who voted Remain are still passionately Remain and all of the people I know that voted Leave are still passionately Leavers.

A lot of people that didn't vote last time probably now would, but I don't know where they'd go.

If the pollsters are to be believed, the country is now united on Brexit (in the sense they want the government to get on with it) but are massively divided on what type of Brexit.

PostRe: Brexit by **Cuttooth** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:36 pm

captain red dog wrote:I'd back another referendum to help settle the issue. I think Leave would still win, and not because I'd vote leave. People have become so entrenched on either side that I don't see much movement at all. All of the people I know who voted Remain are still passionately Remain and all of the people I know that voted Leave are still passionately Leavers.

This is largely true but non-voters last time I'm fairly certain would overwhelmingly back remain.

PostRe: Brexit by **Moggy** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:38 pm

Cuttooth wrote:
captain red dog wrote:I'd back another referendum to help settle the issue. I think Leave would still win, and not because I'd vote leave. People have become so entrenched on either side that I don't see much movement at all. All of the people I know who voted Remain are still passionately Remain and all of the people I know that voted Leave are still passionately Leavers.

This is largely true but non-voters last time I'm fairly certain would overwhelmingly back remain.

Plus lots of the older Leavers will have died off and lots of new young voters will be eligible.

PostRe: Brexit by **BID0** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:40 pm

I'd change my vote from Remain to Leave

If you Brexiteers really want to do it then let's strawberry floating do it.

PostRe: Brexit by **Moggy** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:47 pm

KK wrote:Lets say the UK did go back to the polls under whatever deal the Tories come up with, what do you put it up against? If it fails does the country still leave with no deal at all and fall onto WTO rules? Do we go back to the EU to try and negotiate? Do we remain under the same rules that apply now? Can we bring back David Cameron's deal if we Remain?

Any referendum has to be a simple one with only two options, anymore would split the vote too much. The trouble with that is you then have the situation that we have now where a lot of Leavers pretend the result meant something different to what was voted on (“We voted to get rid of immigrants!”).

So what should be the options? I’d say that the most vocal groups are those that want to remain in the EU and those that want a hard Brexit (no divorce bill paid, no further links etc). So make that the options, we either stay as members of the EU or we go for the hard Brexit. That’s perfectly clear to everyone and it means that there is no way the EU can mess around with any potential deals to manipulate the vote.

If that happened though, watch the supporters of a hard Brexit cry foul that that option is putting people off of voting Leave. :slol:

PostRe: Brexit by **DML** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:50 pm

captain red dog wrote:I'd back another referendum to help settle the issue. I think Leave would still win, and not because I'd vote leave. People have become so entrenched on either side that I don't see much movement at all. All of the people I know who voted Remain are still passionately Remain and all of the people I know that voted Leave are still passionately Leavers.

2 years have passed, and it was a 2% majority. I think its highly likely to swing just through people dying out.

PostRe: Brexit by **Moggy** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:55 pm

Lucien wrote:
captain red dog wrote:I'd back another referendum to help settle the issue. I think Leave would still win, and not because I'd vote leave. People have become so entrenched on either side that I don't see much movement at all. All of the people I know who voted Remain are still passionately Remain and all of the people I know that voted Leave are still passionately Leavers.

Why?

Democracy.

PostRe: Brexit by **That** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:56 pm

We should have never had a referendum on such a painfully, obviously stupid idea in the first place, but if another one is our only chance of reversing this monumentally terrible situation then, sure, whatever.

PostRe: Brexit by **Blue Eyes** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:01 pm

There won't be another referendum. We're all strawberry floated. Get over it, losers.

PostRe: Brexit by **captain red dog** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:07 pm

Lucien wrote:
captain red dog wrote:I'd back another referendum to help settle the issue. I think Leave would still win, and not because I'd vote leave. People have become so entrenched on either side that I don't see much movement at all. All of the people I know who voted Remain are still passionately Remain and all of the people I know that voted Leave are still passionately Leavers.

Why?

Legitimacy. If the country voted to leave again then nobody can really complain about the vote. If we vote to remain, that is reversible no matter what happens but once we leave we won't be going back.

So out of fairness, I couldn't really argue against a second vote. I'd prefer this to happen after the final deal has been agreed and then there is absolutely no doubt what we are voting for.

If the deal is remaining in the EU in all but name but leaving the decision making table, then I'd personally change my vote to Remain as you would get none of the benefits of being outside the block in terms of trade.

PostRe: Brexit by **That** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:12 pm

My only concern with a second referendum is that the typical citizen still has no idea what the EU does, how it is structured, why it is so obviously of mutual benefit, what leaving would actually entail, and so forth.

PostRe: Brexit by **DML** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:20 pm

captain red dog wrote:
Lucien wrote:
captain red dog wrote:I'd back another referendum to help settle the issue. I think Leave would still win, and not because I'd vote leave. People have become so entrenched on either side that I don't see much movement at all. All of the people I know who voted Remain are still passionately Remain and all of the people I know that voted Leave are still passionately Leavers.

Why?

Legitimacy. If the country voted to leave again then nobody can really complain about the vote. If we vote to remain, that is reversible no matter what happens but once we leave we won't be going back.

So out of fairness, I couldn't really argue against a second vote. I'd prefer this to happen after the final deal has been agreed and then there is absolutely no doubt what we are voting for.

If the deal is remaining in the EU in all but name but leaving the decision making table, then I'd personally change my vote to Remain as you would get none of the benefits of being outside the block in terms of trade.

That will be the deal. They can't actually no deal, it'd be suicide. Read between the lines is what I would recommend.

PostRe: Brexit by **Blue Eyes** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:35 pm

Karl wrote:My only concern with a second referendum is that the typical citizen still has no idea what the EU does, how it is structured, why it is so obviously of mutual benefit, what leaving would actually entail, and so forth.

Yes. I'd much rather it was decided and addressed to the public that it simply can't be done without destroying our country and therefore won't be done. There is even less chance of that happening than a second referendum, though, so yeah.

PostRe: Brexit by KK » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:40 pm

Keep in mind the Soil Association has a vested interest in flogging Organic, but...

There is more to fear from a trade deal with the US than just chlorine-washed chicken and hormone-treated beef, the Soil Association has warned, after it released a report outlining 10 “food safety risks”.

The report, published this week, highlights practices legal in the US, such as the use of chicken litter as cattle feed, as concerning and calls on stakeholders in UK food to be allowed input on any future trade negotiations with the US.

Chicken litter - a render of feathers, spilled feed, poultry excrement and sometimes even carcases - is marketed as a cheap feed product for cattle in the US.

While the EU allows its use as a fertiliser, it was banned as a feedstuff following the BSE outbreak in 2001. There have also been reports of carcases in litter being linked to outbreaks of botulism.

The Soil Association also cited the use of growth hormone ractopamine in pork, a drug banned in the EU that causes animals to process feed more efficiently, thereby gaining weight and resulting in more meat in a shorter timeframe.

Importing such meat would effectively undercut UK farmers, said National Pig Association CEO Zoe Davies.

“We would expect retailers to come down on our side and hold foreign producers to the same standards they hold us,” she said. “But in terms of negotiations, the government is yet to earn back our trust on equivalence of standards.”

The US FDA has acknowledged adverse effects in pigs that ingest the drug. Its guidelines state that bottles must carry the warning: ‘Ractopamine may increase the number of injured and/or fatigued pigs during marketing.’

It follows repeated assertions by environment secretary Michael Gove that UK food and welfare standards would not be compromised as a result of a trade deal.

The report also highlights heavy use of genetic engineering in the US, a topic often “tiptoed around” by the EU, the Soil Association claimed, which was hailed as the way forward by environment secretary Michael Gove.

The NGO also highlighted the use of atrazine as a herbicide in corn and sugarcane production as a concern. The chemical, which has been linked to cancer and fertility issues, is the second most commonly used herbicide in the US.

It is claimed to seep through soil to contaminate drinking water and was banned in the EU in 2004 following health fears when the drug was linked to cancer in rats. A 2014 study also linked the chemical to reduced sperm counts in men who were exposed during application to crops.

“While there is huge uncertainty around implementation and transition periods, and a Brexit deal, it is reasonable to expect significant alignment between UK regulation and EU regulation on pesticides for some time,” said NFU senior regulatory affairs adviser Chris Hartfield.

“The NFU wants the UK to adopt a more evidence-based approach. In the meantime, British farmers remain committed to continued high levels of consumer and environmental protection, which they achieve by having food production standards that are among the best in the world.”

https://m.thegrocer.co.uk/buying-and-su ... 62.article

PostRe: Brexit by **Squinty** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:31 pm

Now Arron Banks has come out in support of the second referendum.

PostRe: Brexit by **Cuttooth** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:48 pm

Yeah this is seriously weird.

PostRe: Brexit by **That** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:48 pm

PostRe: Brexit by **captain red dog** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:21 pm

DML wrote:
captain red dog wrote:
Lucien wrote:
captain red dog wrote:I'd back another referendum to help settle the issue. I think Leave would still win, and not because I'd vote leave. People have become so entrenched on either side that I don't see much movement at all. All of the people I know who voted Remain are still passionately Remain and all of the people I know that voted Leave are still passionately Leavers.

Why?

Legitimacy. If the country voted to leave again then nobody can really complain about the vote. If we vote to remain, that is reversible no matter what happens but once we leave we won't be going back.

So out of fairness, I couldn't really argue against a second vote. I'd prefer this to happen after the final deal has been agreed and then there is absolutely no doubt what we are voting for.

If the deal is remaining in the EU in all but name but leaving the decision making table, then I'd personally change my vote to Remain as you would get none of the benefits of being outside the block in terms of trade.

That will be the deal. They can't actually no deal, it'd be suicide. Read between the lines is what I would recommend.

I voted Brexit, I'm obviously not clever enough to read!

Brexit

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

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