Brexit

Hyperion wrote:

Karl wrote:Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties.

Come on now Karl, much like the Irish are drunks, Welsh are sheepshaggers, Scottish are obese, Muslims are terrorists???
What are we saying about not taking the actions/thoughts of some and attaching them to everybody?

Karl wrote:

Hyperion wrote:

Karl wrote:Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties.

Come on now Karl, much like the Irish are drunks, Welsh are sheepshaggers, Scottish are obese, Muslims are terrorists???
What are we saying about not taking the actions/thoughts of some and attaching them to everybody?

No, I was commenting on the statistical fact that the lion's share of support in the UK for leaving the EU will come from within England. In my experience - having, like others, yet to see an actual rational argument against EU membership - the foundation on which the "no" vote is built upon is petty Little England-ism at best and, at worst, outright xenophobia. (If you disagree, have a chat to the hardcore of the "out" campaign: the UKIP voter.)

I obviously didn't mean that I think all the English (including myself?) are small-minded. I've met some fairly bright Englishmen. It's bizarre that I've had to clarify that.

Hyperion wrote:You don't have to clarify it, it's just that if people are going to jump up Nick/Cal's arse when they incorrectly say things like immigrants/muslims are terrorists then you should be a bit more careful when attaching actions to groups.
Obviously the lion's share of support for the UK leaving the EU will come from England as it's a statistical fact that the English make up the lion's share of the UK population.
Anyway enough about (some) greedy lions.

Frank wrote:The EU is the reason behind that dreadful little "this website uses cookies are you okay with that" pop-up warning on EVERY WEBSITE.

I can't forgive them for that.

Hyperion wrote:

Karl wrote:

Hyperion wrote:

Karl wrote:Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties.

Come on now Karl, much like the Irish are drunks, Welsh are sheepshaggers, Scottish are obese, Muslims are terrorists???
What are we saying about not taking the actions/thoughts of some and attaching them to everybody?

No, I was commenting on the statistical fact that the lion's share of support in the UK for leaving the EU will come from within England. In my experience - having, like others, yet to see an actual rational argument against EU membership - the foundation on which the "no" vote is built upon is petty Little England-ism at best and, at worst, outright xenophobia. (If you disagree, have a chat to the hardcore of the "out" campaign: the UKIP voter.)

I obviously didn't mean that I think all the English (including myself?) are small-minded. I've met some fairly bright Englishmen. It's bizarre that I've had to clarify that.

You don't have to clarify it, it's just that if people are going to jump up Nick/Cal's arse when they incorrectly say things like immigrants/muslims are terrorists then you should be a bit more careful when attaching actions to groups.
Obviously the lion's share of support for the UK leaving the EU will come from England as it's a statistical fact that the English make up the lion's share of the UK population.
Anyway enough about (some) greedy lions.

Karl wrote:I don't want to pretend the EU is perfect -- I have a few problems with it. A single market and (mostly) fiscal union between large and advanced countries like the UK, France, and Germany should in retrospect probably not have involved smaller nations like Romania and Portugal, which have very different economic needs. It's bad for them as much as it is for us, and the goals of cultural integration and increased trade and growth could have been achieved through other means. The EU also has problems with effective democracy at times, which are troubling in principle (though in practice I don't mind so much while its decisions remain benign from my perspective).

These are rendered tiny annoyances when compared with the ideals the EU represent. The principle of ever-closer union between the advanced Western and Northern European nations is a thoroughly noble one. People who dislike the EU tend to present the US as a viable alternative to 'partner' with, which is in my view bizarre: I wonder if these people have ever actually met an American! I have always found our neighbours on the continent to be more similar to us in culture and values than Americans - whose beliefs and behaviours I find odd at best and upsetting at worst - will ever be. We are a stronger voice, a closer family, and a richer tapestry for having political union, and a central European government - attempting as it does to be a fair average representation of this continent, the beating heart of liberal democratic Western culture - protects us all by ensuring that, while the pendulums swing from left to right and back again in individual nations, there are certain core values that define us and must always be adhered to.

And for more selfish reasons, we should stay because EU money and EU policy gives us opportunities we can't find elsewhere. EU subsidies gave me the opportunity to study a Master's, and hence a doctorate, at a time when our own government wasn't interested in providing scholarships for those studies. The free movement of people has given me two close friends (French and Greek) and my girlfriend (Italian). There is no way my place of work would exist in its current form without EU funding -- indeed, I work in the scientific sector, and the entire industry is built on EU money: UK science will collapse overnight if we leave. Without being melodramatic, I would be forced to really consider emigrating after my doctorate to ensure that I actually have a career ahead of me, as the UK genuinely could not guarantee that on its own (... and I'm quite sure that Germany in particular would be happy to have me ...).

Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties.

Karl wrote:@Hime: I like their sitcoms but I've never been able to get along with the ones I've actually met. I'm an inherently dislikable shit-heap of human garbage, though, so I imagine that probably has something to do with it too.

BRITAIN and France are being pressured to give up their seats on the UN Security Council and hand them over to the EU instead.

The “preposterously impertinent” declaration from the European Parliament followed a vote by MEPs last week that saw nearly 500 of them declare that the UK and France do not represent European views enough to warrant their place.

It comes as Eurocrats try to bolster the EU’s position as a global player amid criticisms that the Paris terror attacks and the migrant crisis prove that the open borders is a failing concept.

David Campbell Bannerman MEP, co-chairman of the influential Eurosceptic Conservatives for Britain group, said: “This is an outrageous and dangerous powergrab from the EU. Britain has already been forced to relinquish its seat at the World Trade Organisation by the EU, which means we have lost our ability to negotiate international trade deals. The EU is always trespassing in nation state areas.

“This is proof of a determined push towards ever-closer union and creation of an EU superstate.

“It would spell the end of Britain being at the heart of international defence and security at a time when the world faces an unprecedented terrorist threat.”

Conservative Gerald Howarth MP said: “It’s an absurdity. Europe is not a nation state and it is preposterous impertinence to suggest they should supplant two leading nation states which are both nuclear powers.”

Ukip leader Nigel Farage added: “I warned last year that Brussels wanted a European army and a seat on the UN Security Council. Nick Clegg called me a liar and said I was talking a dangerous fantasy.

“There are no sensitivities towards any British interests in the European Parliament. They are hell-bent on building a United States of Europe.”

The timing of the vote, during the run-up to a UK referendum on Europe, was particularly misjudged, said Professor Wyn Grant of Warwick University. “Both France and Britain have been members of the UN Security Council from the beginning and they are Europe’s only nuclear powers,” he said.

“The problem with the EU having a seat would be getting a consensus. Britain and France agree most of the time. The same can’t be said for the rest of Europe.”

A UN spokesman said: “The Secretary General has made it clear that he is open to reform of the Security Council but, ultimately, this is a matter for member states themselves to decide.”

Home Office Minister James Brokenshire confirmed that Britain is considering following France’s lead in fingerprinting EU visitors.

He said: “Home Secretary Theresa May and her French counterpart have had a number of discussions concerning the need to fingerprint individuals at the external border of the Schengen area, as part of the strategy to manage the unprecedented flow of migrants.”