Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
208
79%
Leave the European Union
54
21%
 
Total votes: 262
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Partridge Iciclebubbles
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PostRe: Brexit
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:23 pm

jawafour wrote:Moggy, I need to run out the door now so forgive me for not fully quoting - but the “line” that I draw for UK law is the UK borders. Some folk may not agree with that (i.e. folk who want, say, Scottish or Cornwall independence) but personally I am comfortable with the UK government devising and administering law for countries in the UK.


And that’s why the “I want the UK to decide for itself” thing doesn’t make logical sense to me. Why stop at reversing things back to just the UK? The UK isn’t that old, why not go back to England and Scotland? Mercia and Wessex? City states? Wandering tribes?

The world moves forward, going back to being a little island by ourselves probably won’t mean the collapse of the entire country, but we will be left behind. Less economic clout, less secure, less influence and just lesser. And for what? Making all of our own laws (we can’t, see my list of treaties and organisations)? Making our own trade deals (it’s all only a possibility and will involve handing over further lawmaking power)?

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PostRe: Brexit
by Tell Karl his brother is dead » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:24 pm

A debate can be had as to whether, if we are going to have to compromise a bit on our laws to have free trade with a big power, it would be better to compromise with the EU or the US. The EU are in general pretty similar to us (socialised healthcare, welfare safety nets, sensible labour laws, some degree of environmental awareness, etc.). Meanwhile, I personally think the US is in a really bad place politically speaking and I would be mortified if they had any more influence on us than they already do. I think we might eventually (after decades of economic damage...) end up with a free trade agreement with the US and I fear by that point we'll be so desperate we'll agree to some really horrible terms.

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Hyperion
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PostRe: Brexit
by Hyperion » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:33 pm

jawafour wrote:
Hyperion wrote:...if you believe that the UK government is going to become a shining beacon of the creation of laws for the benefit of the majority of its citizens...

Would the EU be that shining beacon for UK citizens? Don’t get me wrong; I do like some of the laws delivered through the EU i.e. maximum working hours and working rights.

No, but I have more confidence in it than the UK government. Think of a recent law you like, probably down to the EU rather than the UK, and would a UK government have brought it in outside of the EU?
jawafour wrote:Even so, it feels like a reasonable position to choose that the government is the centre of law for the UK rather than through a wider political body.

It is, and it is.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Tell Karl his brother is dead » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:29 pm

I am also a bit sad that Jawa is ignoring me. ;)

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DML
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PostRe: Brexit
by DML » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:49 pm

The best argument against Brexit I have heard is the microchip industry.

Every UK microchip has parts from all over the world, that all have to be regulated and tested to the same standards. Under current rules, that is done seemlessly, but with Brexit every single one of these regulations has to be undone and re-agreed for every tiny part of a microchip, and theres definitely no guarentee that those deals could remain the same, considering you'd have to negotiate each deal seperately with each country. Thats a perfect example of where EU regulations without a shadow of a doubt work.

David Davis has no clue what he is talking about. That is the scariest thing of all.

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Partridge Iciclebubbles
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PostRe: Brexit
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:52 pm

DML wrote:The best argument against Brexit I have heard is the microchip industry.

Every UK microchip has parts from all over the world, that all have to be regulated and tested to the same standards. Under current rules, that is done seemlessly, but with Brexit every single one of these regulations has to be undone and re-agreed for every tiny part of a microchip, and theres definitely no guarentee that those deals could remain the same, considering you'd have to negotiate each deal seperately with each country. Thats a perfect example of where EU regulations without a shadow of a doubt work.

David Davis has no clue what he is talking about. That is the scariest thing of all.


Pffft we’ll just use oven chips instead.

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Rocksleddy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Rocksleddy » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:22 pm

TTIP's a very good example of the benefits of EU membership whereas two years ago it would've looked the opposite - enough pressure came to bear that the original legislation (horrendous by all accounts though we've only seen opinions and leaks) was thrown out. Whereas when it rears its head again in another form once Britain has fully left the EU we will have absolutely no clout whatsoever to reject it, as a tiny country requiring trade deals with a superpower (the US).

As an aside I've just sorted a British contract when i was initially meant to be living in the Netherlands simply because it was so difficult to relocate there (plus they offered me a direct conversion of salary from Euros to GBP based on last week's rates so please don't sack Hammond, May), which puts to lie the argument of how we couldn't control our borders. I know no-one will probably contest me on this but I'm certain some reading it will have voted leave because, partly, of border control. And countries like the Netherlands, pretty liberal by all accounts, throw up so many hurdles that although not written into law you really have to have a good job, decent flat which allows registration, fair stack of money, and time (up to 5 weeks) in which you can afford to live while not being allowed to work. Which i could have managed but just thought strawberry float all that noise.

Whereas in contrast my girfriend is moving to Scotland to work for a bit and it's so unbelievably simple in comparison. Which is obviously great for me and my pro-inmigration views but really shows how unnecessary it was to leave the EU to 'control our borders'.

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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:49 pm

Rocsteady wrote:TTIP's a very good example of the benefits of EU membership whereas two years ago it would've looked the opposite - enough pressure came to bear that the original legislation (horrendous by all accounts though we've only seen opinions and leaks) was thrown out. Whereas when it rears its head again in another form once Britain has fully left the EU we will have absolutely no clout whatsoever to reject it, as a tiny country requiring trade deals with a superpower (the US).

As an aside I've just sorted a British contract when i was initially meant to be living in the Netherlands simply because it was so difficult to relocate there (plus they offered me a direct conversion of salary from Euros to GBP based on last week's rates so please don't sack Hammond, May), which puts to lie the argument of how we couldn't control our borders. I know no-one will probably contest me on this but I'm certain some reading it will have voted leave because, partly, of border control. And countries like the Netherlands, pretty liberal by all accounts, throw up so many hurdles that although not written into law you really have to have a good job, decent flat which allows registration, fair stack of money, and time (up to 5 weeks) in which you can afford to live while not being allowed to work. Which i could have managed but just thought strawberry float all that noise.

Whereas in contrast my girfriend is moving to Scotland to work for a bit and it's so unbelievably simple in comparison. Which is obviously great for me and my pro-inmigration views but really shows how unnecessary it was to leave the EU to 'control our borders'.



This is what has annoyed me the most. The vast majority who voted to leave did so due to border controls and immigration as they believed the problem was the EU. But what annoys me isn't that they thought that it's that successive governments have failed to explain this to the public, they've spent years implying that the problem was the EU when in fact it was our governments choice as to what we did with immigration. I believe that they felt our economy needed this immigration but they didn't want to explain to the public that it was their choice and instead blamed the EU which in the end backfired. Even when it got as far as the brexit debates the remain side just stood there and took the all the flak on immigration, they never explained it the real situation and processes and how we could have a lot more control over our borders if we wanted to but we've chosen not to.

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lex-man
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PostRe: Brexit
by lex-man » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:57 pm

I reckon there is a fairly good chance that the UK could join the US after Brexit. I'm guessing that a lot of Brexiters would strawberry floating love it.

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Lastpostamorph
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lastpostamorph » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:06 pm

lex-man wrote:I reckon there is a fairly good chance that the UK could join the US after Brexit. I'm guessing that a lot of Brexiters would strawberry floating love it.

We could become a US territory. Working out great for Puerto Rico.

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Hyperion
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PostRe: Brexit
by Hyperion » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:09 pm

lex-man wrote:I reckon there is a fairly good chance that the UK could join the US after Brexit. I'm guessing that a lot of Brexiters would strawberry floating love it.


There's not

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Mistletooth
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PostRe: Brexit
by Mistletooth » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:42 pm



The Mail seems absolutely desperate here. It's like an ideological purging is on the cards for any 'non-believers' in the cabinet. :dread:

Is it also wise to reference their own strawberry float up during the election?

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:42 pm

Just read that the government is sitting on economic impact reports for this. Brexshit continues to deliver, maybe?

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Meep
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PostRe: Brexit
by Meep » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:13 pm

I would hate to be any of the Brexiteers who helped persuade the public to vote for this mess. Negotiations are going far worse than I though they would and I was pessimistic to begin with. Anyone who lied to the public about how easy and wonderful this would be better be careful about where they go and how late they stay out in future, otherwise they could be found floating in the nearest canal. There is going to be millions of dangerously pissed off leave voters if the economic impact of leaving with no deal hits them hard enough. The vote was mainly swayed by frustration at the current status quo so imagine how folks will feel when it blows up in their faces.

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Rocksleddy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Rocksleddy » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:27 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Rocsteady wrote:TTIP's a very good example of the benefits of EU membership whereas two years ago it would've looked the opposite - enough pressure came to bear that the original legislation (horrendous by all accounts though we've only seen opinions and leaks) was thrown out. Whereas when it rears its head again in another form once Britain has fully left the EU we will have absolutely no clout whatsoever to reject it, as a tiny country requiring trade deals with a superpower (the US).

As an aside I've just sorted a British contract when i was initially meant to be living in the Netherlands simply because it was so difficult to relocate there (plus they offered me a direct conversion of salary from Euros to GBP based on last week's rates so please don't sack Hammond, May), which puts to lie the argument of how we couldn't control our borders. I know no-one will probably contest me on this but I'm certain some reading it will have voted leave because, partly, of border control. And countries like the Netherlands, pretty liberal by all accounts, throw up so many hurdles that although not written into law you really have to have a good job, decent flat which allows registration, fair stack of money, and time (up to 5 weeks) in which you can afford to live while not being allowed to work. Which i could have managed but just thought strawberry float all that noise.

Whereas in contrast my girfriend is moving to Scotland to work for a bit and it's so unbelievably simple in comparison. Which is obviously great for me and my pro-inmigration views but really shows how unnecessary it was to leave the EU to 'control our borders'.



This is what has annoyed me the most. The vast majority who voted to leave did so due to border controls and immigration as they believed the problem was the EU. But what annoys me isn't that they thought that it's that successive governments have failed to explain this to the public, they've spent years implying that the problem was the EU when in fact it was our governments choice as to what we did with immigration. I believe that they felt our economy needed this immigration but they didn't want to explain to the public that it was their choice and instead blamed the EU which in the end backfired. Even when it got as far as the brexit debates the remain side just stood there and took the all the flak on immigration, they never explained it the real situation and processes and how we could have a lot more control over our borders if we wanted to but we've chosen not to.

The more i think about it i think part of the blame also lies with people like us on here.

I remember many of us laughing off the concerns of immigrants coming over but if Blair,.Brown or Cameron had made it substantially harder for immigrants to come we wouldn't have collapsed our economy and be facing down the barrel of a gun. Perhaps a lesson that we need to learn is to listen more to the general public and give some concessions to opinion when appropriate. Otherwise it all boils over, which looks something like this.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Tell Karl his brother is dead » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:29 am

I don't think we should blame ourselves for not being racist.

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Rocksleddy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Rocksleddy » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:35 am

Karl wrote:I don't think we should blame ourselves for not being racist.

That's a very glib way of putting it.

People on low incomes see their relative income falling and people from poorer countries all around them doing the same job for less and it's hardly a radical idea for them to conclude that increased immigration = lower standard of living for them and their families.

Now, we've seen studies that contradict that on a national level but we already have a progressive mindset which leads us to look up such studies. If I only read the Sun (good sport section) am i going to take their word for it or get home after an 11 hour shift and think 'I'll just read through the latest meta immigration analysis?'

We live in a democracy and even if you think everyone's strawberry floating retarded we still have to bear public opinion in mind. Not having done so has quite clearly led to worse outcomes.

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Schiess dem Denster
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PostRe: Brexit
by Schiess dem Denster » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:39 am

Karl wrote:I don't think we should blame ourselves for not being racist.

No but we can and should blame ourselves for losing an election to racists. At least partially.

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EberKneesUp
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PostRe: Brexit
by EberKneesUp » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:17 am

Rocsteady wrote:I remember many of us laughing off the concerns of immigrants coming over but if Blair,.Brown or Cameron had made it substantially harder for immigrants to come we wouldn't have collapsed our economy and be facing down the barrel of a gun. Perhaps a lesson that we need to learn is to listen more to the general public and give some concessions to opinion when appropriate. Otherwise it all boils over, which looks something like this.

Eh?

Rocsteady wrote:People on low incomes see their relative income falling and people from poorer countries all around them doing the same job for less and it's hardly a radical idea for them to conclude that increased immigration = lower standard of living for them and their families.

Now, we've seen studies that contradict that on a national level but we already have a progressive mindset which leads us to look up such studies. If I only read the Sun (good sport section) am i going to take their word for it or get home after an 11 hour shift and think 'I'll just read through the latest meta immigration analysis?'

So are you saying immigration tanked our economy, or that there is a popular misconception that this is the case? Because only one of those is a good argument for tougher immigration controls, while the other is an issue to do with better informing the electorate.

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Mistletooth
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PostRe: Brexit
by Mistletooth » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:26 am

Rocsteady wrote:
Karl wrote:I don't think we should blame ourselves for not being racist.

That's a very glib way of putting it.

People on low incomes see their relative income falling and people from poorer countries all around them doing the same job for less and it's hardly a radical idea for them to conclude that increased immigration = lower standard of living for them and their families.

Now, we've seen studies that contradict that on a national level but we already have a progressive mindset which leads us to look up such studies. If I only read the Sun (good sport section) am i going to take their word for it or get home after an 11 hour shift and think 'I'll just read through the latest meta immigration analysis?'

We live in a democracy and even if you think everyone's strawberry floating retarded we still have to bear public opinion in mind. Not having done so has quite clearly led to worse outcomes.

I'm not responsible for the right wing press printing numerous lies and skewed stories about immigration and the EU, or for people taking that information at face value. There's no way everyone who reads The Sun believes everything The Sun prints, they have to choose whether or not to do so. I can't do anything to stop someone immediately agreeing with xenophobic or racist arguments because it supports their own xenophobic or racist views.

I'm also not responsible for successive governments failing to educate people on the economic and social importance of immigration and the EU, only really putting out macro level figures that might not convince those on the lowest wages impacted the most negatively. They didn't want to have to deal with their failures in developing British people from all walks of life because it wasn't directly impacting their election chances. They should have done more to improve political engagement but didn't because the minimum effort was getting them by.

While the Remain argument wasn't very positive at all, the information was laid out all the same. Nobody can say the negative aspects of a Leave vote weren't made, nobody should be allowed to say "well you didn't convince me enough". It was their choice to believe the lies.

You're right that we live in a democracy, but it's one where supposedly only adults are allowed to vote. Those adults need to grow up and take responsibility for their actions on the outcome of their votes.


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