Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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Death's Head
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PostRe: RE: Re: Brexit
by Death's Head » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:18 am

Christmas CrackErrkal wrote:I got hit by a bus the other day, I walked out in the road without looking, but is isn't my fault it is the council, they shouldnt allow me the option to walk out into the road.

Just because you get the right to do something doesn't means you should or that if you do the outcome isn't your fault.

Yea the previous government gave you the option to vote for this gooseberry fool show but you actually chose to vote for it, picking this as a result. You could have chosen not to but you didn't.

The voters are responsible for the outcome of a referendum that's the point of a direct democracy exercise.
Maybe then the blame lies with those who voted in the previous government. Maybe a different government wouldn't have put this on the table if they had done their homework first rather than making the options a knee-jerk reaction.

In your example the council didn't say "walk in front of a bus or don't, up to you. We are happy to support either choice and that is why we leave it up to you."

No government (I hope) would say "thinking of going to war with France. We will have a vote and that will decide what we do tomorrow".

Yes?
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Errkal
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PostRe: RE: Re: Brexit
by Errkal » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:21 am

Death's Head wrote:
Christmas CrackErrkal wrote:I got hit by a bus the other day, I walked out in the road without looking, but is isn't my fault it is the council, they shouldnt allow me the option to walk out into the road.

Just because you get the right to do something doesn't means you should or that if you do the outcome isn't your fault.

Yea the previous government gave you the option to vote for this gooseberry fool show but you actually chose to vote for it, picking this as a result. You could have chosen not to but you didn't.

The voters are responsible for the outcome of a referendum that's the point of a direct democracy exercise.
Maybe then the blame lies with those who voted in the previous government. Maybe a different government wouldn't have put this on the table if they had done their homework first rather than making the options a knee-jerk reaction.

In your example the council didn't say "walk in front of a bus or don't, up to you. We are happy to support either choice and that is why we leave it up to you."


Stop trying to shift the blame off of you.

Leave won because people voted leave not because a bunch of people voted Tory.

You could easily have not voted leave but you didn't so the fault is squarly with those that chose this outcome.

You can deny it all you like but the resilt you voted for happened that was a mistake, grow up and accept it.

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Tomous
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PostRe: Brexit
by Tomous » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:23 am

If Brexit had somehow worked out for the better, I'm pretty sure leave voters would have taken no responsibility and instead credited the government only so it's only right they take no responsibility for us being in this clusterfuck...

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Death's Head
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PostRe: RE: Re: RE: Re: Brexit
by Death's Head » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:56 am

Christmas CrackErrkal wrote:
Death's Head wrote:
Christmas CrackErrkal wrote:I got hit by a bus the other day, I walked out in the road without looking, but is isn't my fault it is the council, they shouldnt allow me the option to walk out into the road.

Just because you get the right to do something doesn't means you should or that if you do the outcome isn't your fault.

Yea the previous government gave you the option to vote for this gooseberry fool show but you actually chose to vote for it, picking this as a result. You could have chosen not to but you didn't.

The voters are responsible for the outcome of a referendum that's the point of a direct democracy exercise.
Maybe then the blame lies with those who voted in the previous government. Maybe a different government wouldn't have put this on the table if they had done their homework first rather than making the options a knee-jerk reaction.

In your example the council didn't say "walk in front of a bus or don't, up to you. We are happy to support either choice and that is why we leave it up to you."


Stop trying to shift the blame off of you.

Leave won because people voted leave not because a bunch of people voted Tory.

You could easily have not voted leave but you didn't so the fault is squarly with those that chose this outcome.

You can deny it all you like but the resilt you voted for happened that was a mistake, grow up and accept it.


Stop trying to blame me, I didn't even vote. If you think it is Ok for the government to put something like this to the vote without having plans to cover both outcomes, that is two mistakes you've made in one post.

Yes?
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Errkal
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PostRe: RE: Re: RE: Re: Brexit
by Errkal » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:02 am

Death's Head wrote:
Christmas CrackErrkal wrote:
Death's Head wrote:
Christmas CrackErrkal wrote:I got hit by a bus the other day, I walked out in the road without looking, but is isn't my fault it is the council, they shouldnt allow me the option to walk out into the road.

Just because you get the right to do something doesn't means you should or that if you do the outcome isn't your fault.

Yea the previous government gave you the option to vote for this gooseberry fool show but you actually chose to vote for it, picking this as a result. You could have chosen not to but you didn't.

The voters are responsible for the outcome of a referendum that's the point of a direct democracy exercise.
Maybe then the blame lies with those who voted in the previous government. Maybe a different government wouldn't have put this on the table if they had done their homework first rather than making the options a knee-jerk reaction.

In your example the council didn't say "walk in front of a bus or don't, up to you. We are happy to support either choice and that is why we leave it up to you."


Stop trying to shift the blame off of you.

Leave won because people voted leave not because a bunch of people voted Tory.

You could easily have not voted leave but you didn't so the fault is squarly with those that chose this outcome.

You can deny it all you like but the resilt you voted for happened that was a mistake, grow up and accept it.


Stop trying to blame me, I didn't even vote. If you think it is Ok for the government to put something like this to the vote without having plans to cover both outcomes, that is two mistakes you've made in one post.


My apologies, I assumed as you were shitting blame from the leave grouonyou were one of them.

I agree they should have had a plan, and personally it should never have been a vote. But the blame for the outcome is not only their fault, it is also the fault of those that voted for it, they can not be excused just because it was a crap idea they still chose to ignore the facts and believe the lies and go along with a crap idea.

I agree I made the mistake of how you voted but I wasn't aware, however on the blame point those who voted for an outcome that is gooseberry fool are in the wrong and are to blame for that outcome they do not get off because Cameron was a twat.

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Death's Head
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PostRe: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Brexit
by Death's Head » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:13 am

Christmas CrackErrkal wrote:
Death's Head wrote:
Christmas CrackErrkal wrote:
Death's Head wrote:
Christmas CrackErrkal wrote:I got hit by a bus the other day, I walked out in the road without looking, but is isn't my fault it is the council, they shouldnt allow me the option to walk out into the road.

Just because you get the right to do something doesn't means you should or that if you do the outcome isn't your fault.

Yea the previous government gave you the option to vote for this gooseberry fool show but you actually chose to vote for it, picking this as a result. You could have chosen not to but you didn't.

The voters are responsible for the outcome of a referendum that's the point of a direct democracy exercise.
Maybe then the blame lies with those who voted in the previous government. Maybe a different government wouldn't have put this on the table if they had done their homework first rather than making the options a knee-jerk reaction.

In your example the council didn't say "walk in front of a bus or don't, up to you. We are happy to support either choice and that is why we leave it up to you."


Stop trying to shift the blame off of you.

Leave won because people voted leave not because a bunch of people voted Tory.

You could easily have not voted leave but you didn't so the fault is squarly with those that chose this outcome.

You can deny it all you like but the resilt you voted for happened that was a mistake, grow up and accept it.


Stop trying to blame me, I didn't even vote. If you think it is Ok for the government to put something like this to the vote without having plans to cover both outcomes, that is two mistakes you've made in one post.


My apologies, I assumed as you were shitting blame from the leave grouonyou were one of them.

I agree they should have had a plan, and personally it should never have been a vote. But the blame for the outcome is not only their fault, it is also the fault of those that voted for it, they can not be excused just because it was a crap idea they still chose to ignore the facts and believe the lies and go along with a crap idea.

I agree I made the mistake of how you voted but I wasn't aware, however on the blame point those who voted for an outcome that is gooseberry fool are in the wrong and are to blame for that outcome they do not get off because Cameron was a twat.
As I said previously they are partially to blame, but the government were voted in to lead us and letting people vote on something where there is no plan in place for both outcomes is ridiculous. I hope this eats at Cameron (and anyone else involved in the decision that no idea was a good idea) every day.

For some voters I expect that they would trust the government to have a plan in place for either outcome of the vote. To not have this has let the country down.

Yes?
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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:25 am

For me the buck stops with Cameron. The vote should never have been considered. He gave into a handful of anti eu Tory mps who were in his ear. He should have just ignored them and told them to go away. They held no power over him whatsoever. There wasn’t even enough of them to go rogue and vote against any Tory policies due to the Tory majority at the time.

There was no public outcry for a referendum. No mass protests like those in Catalonia. It was just a small minority of people that kept banging the drum in the media.

There are many intelligent people who voted Brexit and I don’t blame them. They believe it was the correct thing and probably still do. Just like someone who has a different political belief to you. But the Brexit vote bought out any millions who have never voted and probably never will again. Many of them voted under false representations, they were targeted through lies, spin and the real project fear that had been going on for the past 2 decades. They were used and many still don’t even realise it, and probably never will. They will just blame the EU for not giving them what they want.

Anyway it’s all Cameron’s fault. He should have stayed behind and sorted the mess out that he created. As Death head said. If he was giving the people a choice then he should have prepared for both outcomes and made it clear before the vote what both plans were.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit
by Hexx » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:32 am

DP

Last edited by Hexx on Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit
by Hexx » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:33 am

Such a shame these
many intelligent people’ don’t speak up more.

Might help the leave side being less of a national joke

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Death's Head
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PostRe: Brexit
by Death's Head » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:49 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:He should have stayed behind and sorted the mess out that he created.


This is one of the things that annoys me the most, that he could just leave and let someone else try to clear up the mess.

Yes?
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Tomous
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PostRe: Brexit
by Tomous » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:05 pm

Cameron's arrogance on the vote was a massive factor. He never thought he'd lose. The vote should never have happened but if it was going to it should never have been a simple Leave or Stay vote.

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Meep
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Location: Belfast

PostRe: Brexit
by Meep » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:07 pm

Meanwhile in the mainland...

https://www.ft.com/content/b48e4f3a-dc0 ... 4b1c09b482

If only there was way the UK could benefit from these trade deals.

Don't worry though, I am sure it will negotiate a much better one, with much less negotiating power and after the better part of a decade. Well worth the wait.

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KK
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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:12 pm

David Davis on Andrew Marr this morning:

Sky News wrote:David Davis says the UK can negotiate a "bespoke" trade deal with the EU more wide-ranging than the one with Canada within less than a year.

The EU's deal with Canada, which came into force in September, took seven years to negotiate. But it does not extend to services - which are seen as crucial for Britain's financial sector.

In his first TV interview since Theresa May struck a deal with Brussels on the divorce issues, the Brexit Secretary claimed striking a free trade deal with arrangements for specific sectors "is not that complicated".

Trade talks with the EU are set to begin next year following Theresa May's last-minute breakthrough in Brussels on Friday on the divorce issues of money, EU citizens and the Northern Irish border.

Mr Davis told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show that Britain could have a better deal than those the EU has signed with other third countries in recent years.

"What we want is a bespoke outcome. We'll probably start with the best of Canada, and the best of Japan and the best of South Korea and then add to that the bit that's missing, which is the services," he said.

Mr Davis said he was aiming for a "Canada plus plus plus" agreement.

Asked whether it was realistic to strike such a deal within eight months, as it is expected would need to be present it to the EU27 next October, he claimed such a deal could be signed "minutes" after Britain's official departure date at the end of March 2019.

"It's not that complicated," Mr Davis responded to the reports.

"We want an over-arching free trade deal which has no tariffs. Negotiating every tariff is what takes a long time and we start from a position of complete convergence with the EU.

"It's not just my vision, it's what was discussed in cabinet already before the Lancaster House speech and the Florence speech, which is an over-arching free trade deal but including services, which Canada doesn't have, and with individual specific arrangements for aviation, for nuclear, for data, for a whole series of strands which we've worked out.

"It's more like a years in truth rather than eight months, we can't sign until after we leave."

https://news.sky.com/story/david-davis- ... s-11164912

BBC News wrote:The UK's Brexit negotiator David Davis has described the deal struck by Theresa May to move to the next phase of talks as a "statement of intent".

He said it was not "legally enforceable" and if the UK failed to get a trade deal with the EU then it would not pay its divorce bill.

But he stressed that the UK was committed to keeping a "frictionless and invisible" Irish border.

And it would "find a way" to do this if there was a "no deal" Brexit.

The Brexit secretary also stressed that the odds of the UK exiting without a deal had "dropped dramatically" following Friday's joint EU-UK statement in Brussels.

And he spelled out the kind of trade deal he wanted with the EU, describing it as "Canada plus plus plus".

'Hard border'

Canada's deal with the EU, signed last year, removes the vast majority of customs duties on EU exports to Canada and Canadian exports to the EU.
But Mr Davis said it did not include trade in services, something he wanted to see in the UK's "bespoke" deal with the EU.

Chancellor Philip Hammond has previously suggested the Brexit divorce bill - which the Treasury says will be between £35bn and £39bn - will be paid even if no EU trade deal is struck.

Prime Minister Theresa May signed an agreement on Friday ruling out the return of a "hard border" on the island of Ireland, protecting the rights of EU and UK citizens and agreeing a formula for the divorce bill.

EU leaders are now expected to recommend starting the next phase of Brexit talks at a summit on Thursday.

But Mr Davis stressed Friday's agreement was conditional on achieving an "overarching" trade deal with the EU, agreements on security and foreign affairs, as well as the two year transition period the UK wants after if officially leaves the EU in March 2019.

This clause had been diluted at the insistence of the Democratic Unionist Party, which fears Northern Ireland would be separated from the rest of the UK, and move closer to Ireland, if it had to adopt EU rules to keep goods flowing across the border.

Labour's position

But there is still controversy, and confusion, over what "full alignment" would mean in practice, with some Brexiteers fearing the UK would have to continue to abide by EU regulations on agriculture and other issues after Brexit.

Mr Davis said: "I think if we don't get a deal we're going to have to find a way of making sure we keep the frictionless border - as it were an invisible border - in Northern Ireland.

"We do it at the moment. Understand something: at the moment there are different tax and levy regimes and excise regimes north and south of the border.
"We manage that without having border posts allotted along the 300 roads there and we will find a way of doing that."

The UK's opposition Labour party has ruled out remaining in the EU single market and customs union if it wins power.

But the party's shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer said the party wanted a partnership with the EU that "retains the benefits of the single market and the customs union".

Asked if Theresa May's deal would mean Britain would stay very close to the single market and the customs union, he said: "Yes, and I think that's the right thing and I think we should hold her to that because that goes to the heart of the question what sort of Britain do we want to be?

"Do we see Europe as our major trading partner in the future or do we want to rip ourselves apart from that?"

Asked if Britain would have to carry on paying some money in, he said: "Norway pays money in, they do it actually on a voluntary basis... there may have to be payments, that's to be negotiated."

Friday's agreement includes a fallback position if the UK fails to get a trade deal, which proposes full regulatory "alignment" between the EU and the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42298971

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Blue Eyes
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PostRe: Brexit
by Blue Eyes » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:13 pm



This banana split is being investigated by the police, thankfully. The Daily Mail really need investigating too.

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:48 pm

Global powers lobby to stop special Brexit deal for UK

To the surprise of nobody with an ounce of common sense, other trade partners of the EU don't want the UK getting a better deal than they got.

One EU source close to the talks said: “We have been approached by a number of [non-member] countries expressing concerns and making it clear that it would constitute a major problem for them if suddenly the UK were to get better terms than they get.”

The official said that once the UK is out of the single market and customs union in March 2019, there could be no replication of the terms of the current trading relationship, or anything close to it, and no special treatment.

Last edited by Lagamorph on Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:48 pm

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In Wetherspoon’s at the moment and noticed their magazine. Brexit is still going great!! :lol:

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:15 pm

Blue Eyes wrote:

This banana split is being investigated by the police, thankfully. The Daily Mail really need investigating too.


Ah come on now. He's only being a raging psychopath. Leave him alone :lol:

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KK
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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:17 pm

Didn’t even know Wetherspoon’s had a magazine.

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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:14 pm

Lastpostamorph wrote:Global powers lobby to stop special Brexit deal for UK

To the surprise of nobody with an ounce of common sense, other trade partners of the EU don't want the UK getting a better deal than they got.

One EU source close to the talks said: “We have been approached by a number of [non-member] countries expressing concerns and making it clear that it would constitute a major problem for them if suddenly the UK were to get better terms than they get.”

The official said that once the UK is out of the single market and customs union in March 2019, there could be no replication of the terms of the current trading relationship, or anything close to it, and no special treatment.


I’m actually quite surprised by this. Shouldn’t they be hoping that Britain gets a great deal as it means they can go back to the negotiating table with the EU and try to improve their deals? After all that’s what happens in the business world. But then most politicians haven’t had real jobs so have little experience of the real world.

I also disagree with the ‘official’, we can get a better trade deal than other countries with the EU but we will likely have to pay for it. Aside from the European counties who are not in the EU but have single market access none of the other countries pay for their trade deals. If the UK pays for access, which is what I think will happen, then they can’t really moan.

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Garth
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PostRe: Brexit
by Garth » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:03 pm




We've got 'em over a barrel boys! :slol:


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