Brexit

I have set the poll so that you can change your vote if you change your mind between now and whenever the referendum actually takes place.

The manifesto policy Cameron never thought he'd have to actually do as he never expected to win an outright majority will be taking place sometime before the end of 2017, although possibly as early as local and London elections next year.

Cameron's set out his four key objectives:

Economic governance: Securing an explicit recognition that the euro is not the only currency of the European Union, to ensure countries outside the eurozone are not materially disadvantaged. The UK wants safeguards that steps to further financial union cannot be imposed on non-eurozone members and the UK will not have to contribute to eurozone bailouts

Competitiveness: Setting a target for the reduction of the "burden" of excessive regulation and extending the single market

Immigration: Restricting access to in-work and out-of-work benefits to EU migrants. Specifically, ministers want to stop those coming to the UK from claiming certain benefits until they have been resident for four years. Minsters have reportedly been warned by the UK's top civil servant this could be discriminatory and any limits may be reduced to less than a year

Sovereignty: Allowing Britain to opt out from the EU's founding ambition to forge an "ever closer union" of the peoples of Europe so it will not be drawn into further political integration. Giving greater powers to national parliaments to block EU legislation.

Not convinced it will be enough to pacify those wishing to vote out. And despite the rather modest objectives, how likely is the EU to agree to them? Would the EU agreeing to all of them change your mind?

A recent Survation poll:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/666759593402351616

On the UK introducing an Australian points based migration system on EU member states:

Support: 76%
Oppose: 15%
(via Survation / 16-17 Nov)

A large majority clearly favours a policy which is not permissible whilst being a member of the EU. Yet polls seem to show a slight majority in favour of Remain even though other polls have shown that as of the last few months, immigration is now the biggest issue in UK politics.


Do you know what way you will vote at this stage? Are you waiting to see how successful Cameron is with his renegotiations?

If you do know what way you vote at this stage, is there any event you could foresee that could change your mind? Greece leaving the €uro?

I'll be voting Leave. I'm firmly of the opinion that the UK is Better Off Out.

Got loads to say on this but tired and on my phone so another time. One thing I will note is that in my eyes most people who wish to leave want to do so for xenophobic, little englander style reasons which I cannot get on board with at all. Can't stand the mentality of Brits sometimes.

Not only should we stay in we should be more Continental.

I'll be voting to stay.
As much as the EU can cock up, ultimately Britain is better off being in the EU than out.

Now, if the choice was to stay in but you have to adopt the Euro, or leave, then that would sway my opinion. The Euro is a failed experiment and would only drag Britain down with it.

I would like to see us integrate more with Europe.

We aren't better than any of the other countries in Europe, I would think we would really struggle to survive independently.

Europe seems to do much more to protect consumer rights.

I also like the proportional representation voting system deployed across Europe. As a result I feel like our views and rights are protected and listened to far better in Europe than our own Parliament.

A closer union would be preferable.

BID0 wrote:I would like to see us integrate more with Europe.

We aren't better than any of the other countries in Europe, I would think we would really struggle to survive independently.

Europe seems to do much more to protect consumer rights.

I also like the proportional representation voting system deployed across Europe. As a result I feel like our views and rights are protected and listened to far better in Europe than our own Parliament.

Ehhh, I'm not so sure. I think our current position is pretty much spot on. Further integration would almost certainly mean adopting the Euro, and I think Brussels has enough of a say as it is.
Not sure what you're talking about with consumer rights. EU regulations are more for 2 years aren't they? Whilst in Britain the Sales of Goods Act has always given 6 years of protection against failures.

The EU is the reason behind that dreadful little "this website uses cookies are you okay with that" pop-up warning on EVERY WEBSITE.

I can't forgive them for that.

Lagamorph wrote:

BID0 wrote:I would like to see us integrate more with Europe.

We aren't better than any of the other countries in Europe, I would think we would really struggle to survive independently.

Europe seems to do much more to protect consumer rights.

I also like the proportional representation voting system deployed across Europe. As a result I feel like our views and rights are protected and listened to far better in Europe than our own Parliament.

Ehhh, I'm not so sure. I think our current position is pretty much spot on. Further integration would almost certainly mean adopting the Euro, and I think Brussels has enough of a say as it is.
Not sure what you're talking about with consumer rights. EU regulations are more for 2 years aren't they? Whilst in Britain the Sales of Goods Act has always given 6 years of protection against failures.

Britain is technically "within reasonable time" dependant on how long one would expect a product of it's type/cost to last, but that's very vague and hard to argue. A store only has to look after the product they've sold you for the first 12 months, outside of that you have to deal with the manufacturer/courts.

Europe has also protected us in many other ways too, Microsoft Media Player, Telephone costs abroad etc.

BID0 wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:

BID0 wrote:I would like to see us integrate more with Europe.

We aren't better than any of the other countries in Europe, I would think we would really struggle to survive independently.

Europe seems to do much more to protect consumer rights.

I also like the proportional representation voting system deployed across Europe. As a result I feel like our views and rights are protected and listened to far better in Europe than our own Parliament.

Ehhh, I'm not so sure. I think our current position is pretty much spot on. Further integration would almost certainly mean adopting the Euro, and I think Brussels has enough of a say as it is.
Not sure what you're talking about with consumer rights. EU regulations are more for 2 years aren't they? Whilst in Britain the Sales of Goods Act has always given 6 years of protection against failures.

Britain is technically "within reasonable time" dependant on how long one would expect a product of it's type/cost to last, but that's very vague and hard to argue. A store only has to look after the product they've sold you for the first 12 months, outside of that you have to deal with the manufacturer/courts.

Wrong. It's always the retailer, never the manufacturer, even outside of the 12 months. Any Sales of Goods act claim is always against the original retailer, and any court action you take would be against the retailer.

Lagamorph wrote:

BID0 wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:

BID0 wrote:I would like to see us integrate more with Europe.

We aren't better than any of the other countries in Europe, I would think we would really struggle to survive independently.

Europe seems to do much more to protect consumer rights.

I also like the proportional representation voting system deployed across Europe. As a result I feel like our views and rights are protected and listened to far better in Europe than our own Parliament.

Ehhh, I'm not so sure. I think our current position is pretty much spot on. Further integration would almost certainly mean adopting the Euro, and I think Brussels has enough of a say as it is.
Not sure what you're talking about with consumer rights. EU regulations are more for 2 years aren't they? Whilst in Britain the Sales of Goods Act has always given 6 years of protection against failures.

Britain is technically "within reasonable time" dependant on how long one would expect a product of it's type/cost to last, but that's very vague and hard to argue. A store only has to look after the product they've sold you for the first 12 months, outside of that you have to deal with the manufacturer/courts.

Wrong. It's always the retailer, never the manufacturer, even outside of the 12 months. Any Sales of Goods act claim is always against the original retailer, and any court action you take would be against the retailer.

But outside of those 12 months (24 months in Europe) you have to prove that the fault/problem was built in to the product when you originally purchased it and is not down to something like wear and tear/improper use. Something that's hard to argue if you're being stonewalled by a big corporation.

BID0 wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:

BID0 wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:

BID0 wrote:I would like to see us integrate more with Europe.

We aren't better than any of the other countries in Europe, I would think we would really struggle to survive independently.

Europe seems to do much more to protect consumer rights.

I also like the proportional representation voting system deployed across Europe. As a result I feel like our views and rights are protected and listened to far better in Europe than our own Parliament.

Ehhh, I'm not so sure. I think our current position is pretty much spot on. Further integration would almost certainly mean adopting the Euro, and I think Brussels has enough of a say as it is.
Not sure what you're talking about with consumer rights. EU regulations are more for 2 years aren't they? Whilst in Britain the Sales of Goods Act has always given 6 years of protection against failures.

Britain is technically "within reasonable time" dependant on how long one would expect a product of it's type/cost to last, but that's very vague and hard to argue. A store only has to look after the product they've sold you for the first 12 months, outside of that you have to deal with the manufacturer/courts.

Wrong. It's always the retailer, never the manufacturer, even outside of the 12 months. Any Sales of Goods act claim is always against the original retailer, and any court action you take would be against the retailer.

But outside of those 12 months (24 months in Europe) you have to prove that the fault/problem was built in to the product when you originally purchased it and is not down to something like wear and tear/improper use. Something that's hard to argue if you're being stonewalled by a big corporation.

Not really hard at all. You just go to an independent repair place, get a report on the fault that shows its a manufacturing issue rather than just wear and tear or accidental damage, and that's all the proof you need in small claims court.

I vote we leave. The UK would be far better off outside the EU - of course, it all depends on who you ask and I'm sure you can find persuasive arguments on either side. I know which side I'm in favour of.

Leaving the EU would also mean we could re-introduce some immigration sanity back into the system (if there is a system) here at home. A fair, points-based approach which favours no nationalities (unlike the present discriminatory arrangement) and one which focuses on skills and invites anyone from anywhere around the world on a level playing field: a system that, at the same time, controls the numbers sensibly would be ideal.

I don't want the UK to become assimilated into the EU's dream of a federated Europe - I want us to stay independent as a United Kingdom and to become, once again, free to decide our own laws and our own international trading arrangements with everyone else around the world. And free to reject climate nonsense from the EU - which, to me and many others, is a wholly political project designed to bring about societal change by subterfuge and deceit.

I vote 'LEAVE'!

I believe that the majority of people that wish to leave only want to do so for ignorant, xenophobic and other selfish reasons, rather than having any rationale relating to trading, economies or what may or may not be best for the UK.

I don't want to pretend the EU is perfect -- I have a few problems with it. A single market and (mostly) fiscal union between large and advanced countries like the UK, France, and Germany should in retrospect probably not have involved smaller nations like Romania and Portugal, which have very different economic needs. It's bad for them as much as it is for us, and the goals of cultural integration and increased trade and growth could have been achieved through other means. The EU also has problems with effective democracy at times, which are troubling in principle (though in practice I don't mind so much while its decisions remain benign from my perspective).

These are rendered tiny annoyances when compared with the ideals the EU represent. The principle of ever-closer union between the advanced Western and Northern European nations is a thoroughly noble one. People who dislike the EU tend to present the US as a viable alternative to 'partner' with, which is in my view bizarre: I wonder if these people have ever actually met an American! I have always found our neighbours on the continent to be more similar to us in culture and values than Americans - whose beliefs and behaviours I find odd at best and upsetting at worst - will ever be. We are a stronger voice, a closer family, and a richer tapestry for having political union, and a central European government - attempting as it does to be a fair average representation of this continent, the beating heart of liberal democratic Western culture - protects us all by ensuring that, while the pendulums swing from left to right and back again in individual nations, there are certain core values that define us and must always be adhered to.

And for more selfish reasons, we should stay because EU money and EU policy gives us opportunities we can't find elsewhere. EU subsidies gave me the opportunity to study a Master's, and hence a doctorate, at a time when our own government wasn't interested in providing scholarships for those studies. The free movement of people has given me two close friends (French and Greek) and my girlfriend (Italian). There is no way my place of work would exist in its current form without EU funding -- indeed, I work in the scientific sector, and the entire industry is built on EU money: UK science will collapse overnight if we leave. Without being melodramatic, I would be forced to really consider emigrating after my doctorate to ensure that I actually have a career ahead of me, as the UK genuinely could not guarantee that on its own (... and I'm quite sure that Germany in particular would be happy to have me ...).

Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties.

I'd vote to stay in as from what I've seen it all seems to be "we might" and "we could" if we left, rather than any definitive plan.

Basically what Karl said. Especially the part regrading UK/European values vs US values. Less so the bit about having an Italian girlfriend.

I imagine that were the UK to leave the EU, a 2nd Scottish referendum wouldn't be far behind as we sought to leave the UK reenter Europe on our own.

We're a richer nation, both in terms of currency and culture, within the union than we're projected to be without it, so why would we vote to leave?

Jay Adama wrote:Basically what Karl said. Especially the part regrading UK/European values vs US values. Less so the bit about having an Italian girlfriend.

I imagine that were the UK to leave the EU, a 2nd Scottish referendum wouldn't be far behind as we sought to leave the UK reenter Europe on our own.

I think the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon were saying that previously. If Scotland voted to stay in the EU but got dragged out by England voting to leave it would make them call for another Independance referendum, outwith the 60% support threshold they've been saying would be needed.

Karl wrote:Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties.

Come on now Karl, much like the Irish are drunks, Welsh are sheepshaggers, Scottish are obese, Muslims are terrorists???
What are we saying about not taking the actions/thoughts of some and attaching them to everybody?

Oh - and totally stay in.