Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:41 pm

twitter.com/pointlesslettrs/status/930905294485557248



:lol:

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:12 pm

He's right, we do need a Churchill or a Thatcher now. They'd call this gooseberry fool off in a second.

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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:31 pm

New official statistics today revealing there are currently a record number of EU citizens working in the UK:

The Times wrote:The number of EU citizens working in Britain rose to a record high in the year after the Brexit referendum, official figures reveal.

Despite fears of a so-called Brexodus, 2.37 million migrants from EU states were employed between July and September, an increase of 112,000 on the same period last year. After an initial drop in the three months after the vote in June 2016, the number of EU citizens employed has risen in every quarter this year.

This month the National Farmers' Union said that fruit and vegetables were being left to rot because of a shortage of seasonal workers, suggesting that more were needed for unskilled roles. Today's figures from the ONS suggest however that with full employment in Britain there remains strong demand for migrant workers.

Numbers from the 14 western EU countries, including France, Italy and Germany, rose by 45,000 to 987,000 in the year after the referendum. The number of Romanians and Bulgarians jumped by almost 90,000 to 347,000.

Those from eight other eastern European states known as the EU8 fell by 19,000 to just over 1 million. Despite the fall there are now more citizens of Poland, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Slovinia working in Britain than shortly before the referendum.

Alp Mehmet, vice-chairman of Migration Watch UK, which campaigns for lower immigration, said: "The figures show that prediction of a Brexodus - an outflow of EU workers - are nonsense. In fact there has been an increase in the last year. Part of this is the inflow of Romanians and Bulgarians who go into low paid work."

Overall the number of people in employment has fallen for the first time in a year, the ONS figures showed, raising questions about the resilience of the labour market but providing a welcome boost to productivity.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Hexx » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:32 pm

twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/930929122259369984


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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:36 pm

The Express meanwhile have gone off on Foreign Aid money again,

twitter.com/Dragonffff/status/930923919976075264


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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:41 pm

Talking of cash, there may be progress there:

The Guardian wrote:Theresa May is close to offering a deal on money that would unlock the Brexit negotiations, according to the head of Europe’s centre-right MEPs, who said he had received “positive messages” during a meeting in Downing Street on Wednesday.

Manfred Weber, a German leader of the European People’s party (EPP) who is also a close ally of chancellor Angela Merkel, said he had witnessed a substantial shift in the British approach which might now allow EU leaders to move on to the next stage of negotiations.

“I am one of the more sceptical partners from the European parliament side [about the] Brexit negotiations and ongoing progress but I have to say that after my meetings today my main message is that I am more optimistic that there is progress; that there is the will to see progress,” Weber told reporters after meeting May, David Davis and Amber Rudd for separate talks.

“The message is that the will is there,” he added. “That is the most important thing, because the perspective from a European point of view toward London was that in the last month or two there [was not]. After my meeting I have more certainty about the general direction and that is positive.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... gotiations

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PostRe: Brexit
by Rocsteady » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:15 am

Lagamorph wrote:The Express meanwhile have gone off on Foreign Aid money again,

twitter.com/Dragonffff/status/930923919976075264


Bet that's not the only crusade those strawberry floaters would want.

Taking money earmarked for the poorest nations, so brave.

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:30 am

twitter.com/Channel4News/status/930904986594275329


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Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:33 am

Lagamorph wrote:

twitter.com/Channel4News/status/930904986594275329



The thing is these people voted to leave as they were told that they would get back the UK fishing waters, have the ability to catch more fish and still have free trade with no barriers plus the potential of more free trade markets in the near future.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:36 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:

twitter.com/Channel4News/status/930904986594275329



The thing is these people voted to leave as they were told that they would get back the UK fishing waters, have the ability to catch more fish and still have free trade with no barriers plus the potential of more free trade markets in the near future.

So? Just a tiny bit of research on their part would have shown they were being lied to. It's their fault they chose not to bother confirming what they were being told by someone like Farage who was already known to be a liar and untrustworthy.

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Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:39 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:

twitter.com/Channel4News/status/930904986594275329



The thing is these people voted to leave as they were told that they would get back the UK fishing waters, have the ability to catch more fish and still have free trade with no barriers plus the potential of more free trade markets in the near future.


And plenty of people told them that the likes of Farage and Boris Johnson were lying.

It's their own fault for believing in people that are well known to be liars.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:40 am

Lagamorph wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:

twitter.com/Channel4News/status/930904986594275329



The thing is these people voted to leave as they were told that they would get back the UK fishing waters, have the ability to catch more fish and still have free trade with no barriers plus the potential of more free trade markets in the near future.

So? Just a tiny bit of research on their part would have shown they were being lied to. It's their fault they chose not to bother confirming what they were being told by someone like Farage who was already known to be a liar and untrustworthy.


But there was no proof that it wouldn’t be possible, it was all a matter of opinion and what you chose to believe or possibly manipulated into believing.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:51 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:

twitter.com/Channel4News/status/930904986594275329



The thing is these people voted to leave as they were told that they would get back the UK fishing waters, have the ability to catch more fish and still have free trade with no barriers plus the potential of more free trade markets in the near future.

So? Just a tiny bit of research on their part would have shown they were being lied to. It's their fault they chose not to bother confirming what they were being told by someone like Farage who was already known to be a liar and untrustworthy.


But there was no proof that it wouldn’t be possible, it was all a matter of opinion and what you chose to believe or possibly manipulated into believing.

There absolutely was proof though. Every verified fact supported the remain arguments. That's why it was all dismissed as Project Fear and why the Leave side had to rely entirely on demonstrably impossible implications and twisting of facts.

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Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:58 am

Lagamorph wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:

twitter.com/Channel4News/status/930904986594275329



The thing is these people voted to leave as they were told that they would get back the UK fishing waters, have the ability to catch more fish and still have free trade with no barriers plus the potential of more free trade markets in the near future.

So? Just a tiny bit of research on their part would have shown they were being lied to. It's their fault they chose not to bother confirming what they were being told by someone like Farage who was already known to be a liar and untrustworthy.


But there was no proof that it wouldn’t be possible, it was all a matter of opinion and what you chose to believe or possibly manipulated into believing.

There absolutely was proof though. Every verified fact supported the remain arguments. That's why it was all dismissed as Project Fear and why the Leave side had to rely entirely on demonstrably impossible implications and twisting of facts.


There is no proof that you can't breath air in space. Except for all the so called “experts” that say there is no air up there. strawberry floating “experts”, we are sick of them! I say we all go into space without spacesuits and prove the “experts” wrong. They are just peddling Project Fear to stop us all living in weightlessness. Wankers. :x

If we get into space and find we can’t breath, then I am sure NASA will make an exception for us and give us all spacesuits free of charge.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:01 am

Lagamorph wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:

twitter.com/Channel4News/status/930904986594275329



The thing is these people voted to leave as they were told that they would get back the UK fishing waters, have the ability to catch more fish and still have free trade with no barriers plus the potential of more free trade markets in the near future.

So? Just a tiny bit of research on their part would have shown they were being lied to. It's their fault they chose not to bother confirming what they were being told by someone like Farage who was already known to be a liar and untrustworthy.


But there was no proof that it wouldn’t be possible, it was all a matter of opinion and what you chose to believe or possibly manipulated into believing.

There absolutely was proof though. Every verified fact supported the remain arguments. That's why it was all dismissed as Project Fear and why the Leave side had to rely entirely on demonstrably impossible implications and twisting of facts.


There was no proof that we wouldn’t be able to negotiate a free trade deal with the EU, control our borders and not have to pay for access. No proof that inflation would rise and the pound plummet in value. There was evidence to suggest that it may happen but not proof. I don’t blame people for not believing in it and believing that something else was achievable but I do blame those who didn’t take any time to do any research to try and form their opinion.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:13 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:There was no proof that we wouldn’t be able to negotiate a free trade deal with the EU, control our borders and not have to pay for access.


There really was. :lol:

Why the hell would the EU say "Hey UK! We love you guys, how about we give you free access to our market, with no membership fee and we will even let you kick out all of the Polish and Romanian workers!"

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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:18 am

Moggy wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:There was no proof that we wouldn’t be able to negotiate a free trade deal with the EU, control our borders and not have to pay for access.


There really was. :lol:

Why the hell would the EU say "Hey UK! We love you guys, how about we give you free access to our market, with no membership fee and we will even let you kick out all of the Polish and Romanian workers!"


That’s still not proof. You can’t factually predict the future. There’s evidence now to suggest that the EU could all come crumbling down in the next decade. People were confident that Greece would leave the EU and it would start to tumble but it hasn’t happened. I don’t think the EU will collapsed anytime soon though. I think it will be around for my lifetime but I can’t guarantee it.

I agree with you though. I don’t think it was ever achievable but it all boiled down to who managed to convince the voters of their vision for the future better. What the remain side didn’t have was 30 years of propaganda through the right wing media like the mail and express.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:24 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:There was no proof that we wouldn’t be able to negotiate a free trade deal with the EU, control our borders and not have to pay for access.


There really was. :lol:

Why the hell would the EU say "Hey UK! We love you guys, how about we give you free access to our market, with no membership fee and we will even let you kick out all of the Polish and Romanian workers!"


That’s still not proof. You can’t factually predict the future. There’s evidence now to suggest that the EU could all come crumbling down in the next decade. People were confident that Greece would leave the EU and it would start to tumble but it hasn’t happened. I don’t think the EU will collapsed anytime soon though. I think it will be around for my lifetime but I can’t guarantee it.

I agree with you though. I don’t think it was ever achievable but it all boiled down to who managed to convince the voters of their vision for the future better. What the remain side didn’t have was 30 years of propaganda through the right wing media like the mail and express.

We already could control our borders, and that includes EU migration not just outside EU migration. Successive UK governments just chose not to exercise those powers whilst other EU nations did.
There was absolutely proof we'd have to pay for any access to the EU market, it's written into EU law and has been for decades.
There was proof that negotiation of a free trade deal with the EU would take far longer than any 2 year exit period, because that's how long EVERY free trade deal takes to negotiate. It's just that leavers thought the UK was some special little snowflake that would get everything fast tracked and handed to it because they fell for the "They need us more than we need them" bullshit.

Last edited by Lagamorph on Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:24 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
That’s still not proof. You can’t factually predict the future. There’s evidence now to suggest that the EU could all come crumbling down in the next decade. People were confident that Greece would leave the EU and it would start to tumble but it hasn’t happened. I don’t think the EU will collapsed anytime soon though. I think it will be around for my lifetime but I can’t guarantee it.


Anti EU types think there is evidence the EU is going to crumble. Mostly based on France and the Netherlands pulling out. Which didn’t happen.

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You’re right we can’t 100% predict the future. But it was bloody unlikely the EU was going to give us free access to the market with no freedom of movement and no membership fees.

It was about as likely as it is for Sky and BT to let the BBC show all the football for free. Sounds crazy but as we can’t predict the future maybe it will happen next week.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:32 am

Lagamorph wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:There was no proof that we wouldn’t be able to negotiate a free trade deal with the EU, control our borders and not have to pay for access.


There really was. :lol:

Why the hell would the EU say "Hey UK! We love you guys, how about we give you free access to our market, with no membership fee and we will even let you kick out all of the Polish and Romanian workers!"


That’s still not proof. You can’t factually predict the future. There’s evidence now to suggest that the EU could all come crumbling down in the next decade. People were confident that Greece would leave the EU and it would start to tumble but it hasn’t happened. I don’t think the EU will collapsed anytime soon though. I think it will be around for my lifetime but I can’t guarantee it.

I agree with you though. I don’t think it was ever achievable but it all boiled down to who managed to convince the voters of their vision for the future better. What the remain side didn’t have was 30 years of propaganda through the right wing media like the mail and express.

We already could control our borders, and that includes EU migration not just outside EU migration. Successive UK governments just chose not to exercise those powers whilst other EU nations did.
There was absolutely proof we'd have to pay for any access to the EU market, it's written into EU law and has been for decades.
There was proof that negotiation of a free trade deal with the EU would take far longer than any 2 year exit period, because that's how long EVERY free trade deal takes to negotiate. It's just that leavers thought the UK was some special little snowflake that would get everything fast tracked and handed to it because they fell for the "They need us more than we need them" bullshit.


I’m aware that we already control our borders.

I’ve never seen mention before of it being written into eu law that you have to pay for access to the market. Again I was saying this was true just saying what people believed to be the case.

On the negotiation front, even now both sides are claiming that a deal can be negotiated if it starts very soon. Personally I don’t believe this to be possible as I’ve seen how long other deals have taken. If we leave then we have to have a transition stage to continue negotiations but currently I’ve only seen mention of a transition stage if we can finalise a deal before the leave date and a transition deal to allow for further negotiations which I believe will be necessary. We should never have invoked article 50 when we did but for some reason people on both sides were insistent that it had to happen before we could negotiate even though it was clear that 2 years was not long enough to finalise anything.

As I said I’m not supporting the arguments to leave just saying that I understand why some people voted out.

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