Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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Partridge Iciclebubbles
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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:37 am

Stay in, it would be madness to leave.

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Karl » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:48 am

Hyperion wrote:
Karl wrote:Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties. :(


Come on now Karl, much like the Irish are drunks, Welsh are sheepshaggers, Scottish are obese, Muslims are terrorists???
What are we saying about not taking the actions/thoughts of some and attaching them to everybody?


I'm English, so I suppose I was being racist against ... myself? The scene in Curb where Larry is accused of being a "self-hating Jew" springs to mind.

No, I was commenting on the statistical fact that the lion's share of support in the UK for leaving the EU will come from within England. In my experience - having, like others, yet to see an actual rational argument against EU membership - the foundation on which the "no" vote is built upon is petty Little England-ism at best and, at worst, outright xenophobia. (If you disagree, have a chat to the hardcore of the "out" campaign: the UKIP voter.)

Obviously the other nations have indulged in a degree of UKIP silliness too; even Scotland has one UKIP MEP. It is just frustrating to recognise that England, statistically the most prosperous and metropolitan of our nations, is also statistically the most likely to fall prey to this nonsense. And it will be frustrating further if those people have their way for the whole UK without reaching a majority in each nation.

I obviously didn't mean that I think all the English (including myself?) are small-minded. I've met some fairly bright Englishmen. It's bizarre that I've had to clarify that.


(There was a racist part of that post, though: admitting several times that I don't really like Americans. But that seems to have flown under the radar. :slol: )

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by KK » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:13 am

There are some notable names that think we should leave the EU - James Dyson, Duncan Bannatyne, Anthony Bamford (JCB), Alan Sugar, Michael Portillo...

I'm undecided at the moment. Waiting to see what develops in terms of the world situation over the course of the next 6-12 months. I mean look, one of the biggest issues with the EU - the schengen agreement - may be gone completely soon. Anything can happen.

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by OrangeReindeer » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:40 am

The debate is seemingly always framed as the xenophobic, Britain first crowd arguing for leaving the EU, while the liberal, multicultural lot favour retaining our EU membership (and even further integration).

I think that this debate is the wrong debate to be having, and we entirely miss the greatest issue with the EU - that is, democracy, and how the EU is undemocratic.

I understand why the political left supports the EU - freedom of movement, free trade, the breaking of national borders and the fostering of a European identity that transcends nationality are all great things, and the founding principles of the union. However, I think the left's trust and support in the EU is misplaced.

The EU continues to move towards further integration and centralisation of power, a trend where the end goal seems to be almost a federal United States of Europe. I am a strong believe in decentralisation of devolution of powers, which is usually a policy of the left. Look at the support for devolution of powers to the Scottish and Welsh parliaments, for example. This is the opposite direction to which the EU is moving. While centralisation as of itself is not great, the most worrying aspect however is who this power is being centralised to.

The European Union is not democratic. We have European elections, where we elect members of European Parliament. The European Parliament cannot create laws. It can only vote on them. It only makes up one third of the European legislative body, with the other two institutions (the Council of the European Union and the European Commission) being non-representative and unelected. I also do not believe the Proportional Representation system to be a good one for achieving actual democratic representation (although it's probably still better than FPTP).

I want to remain in a European Union as it was originally conceived. A multi-national organisation committed to peace and a driving force of mutual prosperity, which guarantees basic human rights and living conditions to all citizens of all member states, as well as allowing for freedom of movement and trade.

I do not want to be in a European Union where more and more laws are decided by unelected officials in Brussels, and where power is centralised away from the places and people it affects.

I think that many of the benefits of the EU can be achieved from outside of the EU, through separate treaties guaranteeing things such as free trade. This would be to the benefit of all involved, even should we choose to leave.

While I would mourn the loss of the original vision of the European Union, I think that may have already happened, and it may already be too late to reverse the direction the EU is taking. It is not a direction I believe we should follow.

EDIT

lol at the word filter for multi cultural

Last edited by OrangeReindeer on Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Coreopsis » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:40 am

Is the choice really as clear cut as some in this thread indicate? I've read some articles here and there which say that effectively we'll be fine in terms of economy and trade - there's quite a lot of financial scaremongering from the Stay In side - and that really it comes down to weighing up the pros and cons, personal views on longterm stability, national interests, consistent human rights and attitudes to free movement and immigration, etc. Which is the real crux of it.

Put it this way, I have no fears either way in regards to economy and trade whether we're in or out. I think it comes down to the personal benefits, of which there are undoubtedly some, to the drawbacks - which is where the sticky debate is. One person's drawback can be interpreted very differently by someone else.

But on a larger scale, UK will be fine longterm either way, economically at least...

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Saigon Slick » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:46 am

There's no question in my mind that the UK would be fine in the financial sense, probably after a term of short term instability. Whether it's a good idea or not in other respects is a completely different question.

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Hyperion
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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Hyperion » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:08 pm

Karl wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Karl wrote:Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties. :(


Come on now Karl, much like the Irish are drunks, Welsh are sheepshaggers, Scottish are obese, Muslims are terrorists???
What are we saying about not taking the actions/thoughts of some and attaching them to everybody?


No, I was commenting on the statistical fact that the lion's share of support in the UK for leaving the EU will come from within England. In my experience - having, like others, yet to see an actual rational argument against EU membership - the foundation on which the "no" vote is built upon is petty Little England-ism at best and, at worst, outright xenophobia. (If you disagree, have a chat to the hardcore of the "out" campaign: the UKIP voter.)

I obviously didn't mean that I think all the English (including myself?) are small-minded. I've met some fairly bright Englishmen. It's bizarre that I've had to clarify that.


You don't have to clarify it, it's just that if people are going to jump up Nick/Cal's arse when they incorrectly say things like immigrants/muslims are terrorists then you should be a bit more careful when attaching actions to groups.
Obviously the lion's share of support for the UK leaving the EU will come from England as it's a statistical fact that the English make up the lion's share of the UK population.
Anyway enough about (some) greedy lions.

EDIT: For anyone reading through, though, I feel I should also remark: please don't be fooled by Karl's woeful misunderstanding of words below.
The sly banana split ;) :lol:

Last edited by Hyperion on Wed May 16, 2018 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Karl » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:26 pm

Hyperion wrote:You don't have to clarify it, it's just that if people are going to jump up Nick/Cal's arse when they incorrectly say things like immigrants/muslims are terrorists then you should be a bit more careful when attaching actions to groups.
Obviously the lion's share of support for the UK leaving the EU will come from England as it's a statistical fact that the English make up the lion's share of the UK population.
Anyway enough about (some) greedy lions.


I think the point I was making was fairly obviously different to the nonsense our forum's resident xenophobes post, but OK -- I'll leave it there.

EDIT: For anyone reading through, though, I feel I should also remark: please don't be fooled by Hyperion's woeful misunderstanding of statistics, there. England is disproportionately in favour of leaving the EU, it's not a "higher population" thing at all.

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Green Gecko » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:34 pm

Frank wrote:The EU is the reason behind that dreadful little "this website uses cookies are you okay with that" pop-up warning on EVERY WEBSITE.

I can't forgive them for that.

You'll be pleased to know I'll have to implement that as well.

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by KK » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:56 pm

Just done a poll for YouGov on the EU referendum. Expect something to turn up in the papers this weekend.

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Grumpy David » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:27 pm

It will be interesting to know if the polls have finally accounted for the shy Tory factor after the useless General Election polling. Wouldn't be surprised if Leave does better than polling indicates.

However, I think the fear argument of leaving the EU is likely to end up with Remain winning.

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by OrangeReindeer » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:36 pm

Yeah, the vote will almost certainly decide to stay in, for exactly that - the fear of change. It happened with the AV vote (although the whole thing was farcical), and it happened with the Scottish independence vote.

It's very easily to capitalise on the inherent uncertainty in voting to make a change to persuade people to not support it, even if they actually think it a good idea.

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Rocsteady » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:16 pm

Hyperion wrote:
Karl wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Karl wrote:Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties. :(


Come on now Karl, much like the Irish are drunks, Welsh are sheepshaggers, Scottish are obese, Muslims are terrorists???
What are we saying about not taking the actions/thoughts of some and attaching them to everybody?


No, I was commenting on the statistical fact that the lion's share of support in the UK for leaving the EU will come from within England. In my experience - having, like others, yet to see an actual rational argument against EU membership - the foundation on which the "no" vote is built upon is petty Little England-ism at best and, at worst, outright xenophobia. (If you disagree, have a chat to the hardcore of the "out" campaign: the UKIP voter.)

I obviously didn't mean that I think all the English (including myself?) are small-minded. I've met some fairly bright Englishmen. It's bizarre that I've had to clarify that.


You don't have to clarify it, it's just that if people are going to jump up Nick/Cal's arse when they incorrectly say things like immigrants/muslims are terrorists then you should be a bit more careful when attaching actions to groups.
Obviously the lion's share of support for the UK leaving the EU will come from England as it's a statistical fact that the English make up the lion's share of the UK population.
Anyway enough about (some) greedy lions.

In the same way that it's a statistical fact that English people are most in favour of leaving the EU compared to the rest of the UK, and vote for the more American style, right-wing parties.

I take more issue with Karl saying he finds Americans odd or upsetting, I love Americans. They're great fun.

There are definitely rational reasons for leaving the EU and to act dismissive and pretend that there aren't could be viewed as being almost as small minded as many of the people who support leaving to protect our way of lief and kepp migrnts out.

OrangeRakoon articulated my main issue with it; it is laughably, horribly undemocratic in the main. This doesn't bother me perhaps as much as it should, due to my liberal tendencies and the laws being passed - in the main - roughly going along with my world view, but realistically it should concern us all. The EU is a closed shop, a monolithic structure that only big business lobbyists and the largest of NGOs can hope to penetrate. Constituents views barely register and initiatives such as ECIs to promote democratic mechanisms have been shown to be completely unwieldy and fatally flawed in a number of ways.

Another issue is wastefulness. Millions upon millions of Euros are being spent on, things.. that will not benefit citizens of Europe in any meaningful way. The levels of spending out here are absolutely insane.

Having said that, I'm almost completely certain I will be voting to stay in the EU. I think economically it is the right thing to do, and the overarching idea of the EU is one that should absolutely be praised. I do worry for the future, though, and if it continues to grow without addressing the democratic deficit I could forsee a future where I begin to get scared of the power it holds.

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PostRe: RE: Re: The EU Referendum
by Hime » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:44 pm

Karl wrote:I don't want to pretend the EU is perfect -- I have a few problems with it. A single market and (mostly) fiscal union between large and advanced countries like the UK, France, and Germany should in retrospect probably not have involved smaller nations like Romania and Portugal, which have very different economic needs. It's bad for them as much as it is for us, and the goals of cultural integration and increased trade and growth could have been achieved through other means. The EU also has problems with effective democracy at times, which are troubling in principle (though in practice I don't mind so much while its decisions remain benign from my perspective).

These are rendered tiny annoyances when compared with the ideals the EU represent. The principle of ever-closer union between the advanced Western and Northern European nations is a thoroughly noble one. People who dislike the EU tend to present the US as a viable alternative to 'partner' with, which is in my view bizarre: I wonder if these people have ever actually met an American! I have always found our neighbours on the continent to be more similar to us in culture and values than Americans - whose beliefs and behaviours I find odd at best and upsetting at worst - will ever be. We are a stronger voice, a closer family, and a richer tapestry for having political union, and a central European government - attempting as it does to be a fair average representation of this continent, the beating heart of liberal democratic Western culture - protects us all by ensuring that, while the pendulums swing from left to right and back again in individual nations, there are certain core values that define us and must always be adhered to.

And for more selfish reasons, we should stay because EU money and EU policy gives us opportunities we can't find elsewhere. EU subsidies gave me the opportunity to study a Master's, and hence a doctorate, at a time when our own government wasn't interested in providing scholarships for those studies. The free movement of people has given me two close friends (French and Greek) and my girlfriend (Italian). There is no way my place of work would exist in its current form without EU funding -- indeed, I work in the scientific sector, and the entire industry is built on EU money: UK science will collapse overnight if we leave. Without being melodramatic, I would be forced to really consider emigrating after my doctorate to ensure that I actually have a career ahead of me, as the UK genuinely could not guarantee that on its own (... and I'm quite sure that Germany in particular would be happy to have me ...).

Alas, the English seem to be getting more small-minded - dare I say more American? - by the day. It's an affliction that hasn't yet seemed to spread to Wales or Scotland, and it will be particularly frustrating if we are dragged out by petty xenophobia in the home counties. :(

Couldn't disagree with you more about Americans, given the amount of them chances are you will meet some you don't like but it doesn't stop that being a bizarre thing to say.

As for the EU, I vote stay. Not a particularly well educated opinion but I like the free movement between EU countries and the only way we will ever do anything meaningful about carbon emissions is to impose laws on everyone.

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Grumpy David » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:54 pm

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/667687376777584640?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

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Woops. :slol:

I do look forward to seeing which Tory politicians/cabinet members have the balls to say they want out of the EU after Cameron's pathetic objectives, of which he'll get none but claim to have got all 4.

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Karl » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:03 pm

@Hime: I like their sitcoms but I've never been able to get along with the ones I've actually met. I'm an inherently dislikable shit-heap of human garbage, though, so I imagine that probably has something to do with it too.

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PostRe: RE: Re: The EU Referendum
by Hime » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:36 pm

Karl wrote:@Hime: I like their sitcoms but I've never been able to get along with the ones I've actually met. I'm an inherently dislikable shit-heap of human garbage, though, so I imagine that probably has something to do with it too.

I've met some right idiots from the States but in my time there I've found the people to be genuinely friendly and interesting people. I might be biased due to the amount of female attention a British accent gets you.

If that's how you feel based on your experiences then fair enough. I had several awful experiences with people in Morocco that has made me never want to go there it any other Arabic country again. I understand generalising in some circumstances.

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by KK » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:31 pm

Latest poll puts OUT in the lead, though it's still mightily close:

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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Grumpy David » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:08 pm

The Sunday Express has an article about the EU wanting to make the UK and France give up their UN Security Council seat.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/622814/EU-plot-to-kick-UK-out-UN-security-council-Nigel-Farage-Theresa-May

BRITAIN and France are being pressured to give up their seats on the UN Security Council and hand them over to the EU instead.

The “preposterously impertinent” declaration from the European Parliament followed a vote by MEPs last week that saw nearly 500 of them declare that the UK and France do not represent European views enough to warrant their place.

It comes as Eurocrats try to bolster the EU’s position as a global player amid criticisms that the Paris terror attacks and the migrant crisis prove that the open borders is a failing concept.

David Campbell Bannerman MEP, co-chairman of the influential Eurosceptic Conservatives for Britain group, said: “This is an outrageous and dangerous powergrab from the EU. Britain has already been forced to relinquish its seat at the World Trade Organisation by the EU, which means we have lost our ability to negotiate international trade deals. The EU is always trespassing in nation state areas.

“This is proof of a determined push towards ever-closer union and creation of an EU superstate.

“It would spell the end of Britain being at the heart of international defence and security at a time when the world faces an unprecedented terrorist threat.”

Conservative Gerald Howarth MP said: “It’s an absurdity. Europe is not a nation state and it is preposterous impertinence to suggest they should supplant two leading nation states which are both nuclear powers.”

Ukip leader Nigel Farage added: “I warned last year that Brussels wanted a European army and a seat on the UN Security Council. Nick Clegg called me a liar and said I was talking a dangerous fantasy.

“There are no sensitivities towards any British interests in the European Parliament. They are hell-bent on building a United States of Europe.”

The timing of the vote, during the run-up to a UK referendum on Europe, was particularly misjudged, said Professor Wyn Grant of Warwick University. “Both France and Britain have been members of the UN Security Council from the beginning and they are Europe’s only nuclear powers,” he said.

“The problem with the EU having a seat would be getting a consensus. Britain and France agree most of the time. The same can’t be said for the rest of Europe.”

A UN spokesman said: “The Secretary General has made it clear that he is open to reform of the Security Council but, ultimately, this is a matter for member states themselves to decide.”

Home Office Minister James Brokenshire confirmed that Britain is considering following France’s lead in fingerprinting EU visitors.

He said: “Home Secretary Theresa May and her French counterpart have had a number of discussions concerning the need to fingerprint individuals at the external border of the Schengen area, as part of the strategy to manage the unprecedented flow of migrants.”



Better off out.

Seems like all of Farage's predictions from last year and the year before have come true.

When Farage kicked Clegg's arse in the EU debate before the EU election in 2014, you'd have thought that would be enough for Clegg. He must however be a glutton for punishment as last Monday he debated Farage at the Oxford Union debate society on the same question. It'll probably be a few more days before their YouTube channel has uploaded the video but it's safe to say that Farage no doubt stomped all over Clegg once again.

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Partridge Iciclebubbles
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PostRe: The EU Referendum
by Partridge Iciclebubbles » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:55 am

As it only seems to be the Express saying that, I will take it with a pinch of salt (I am not saying it isn't true, I just can't find any other site that is even mentioning it).

All of Farage's predicitions from last year have come true? I guess that is easy when you make piss easy predicitions or mention things that have been discussed for years. There have been reports about and calls for a European army for at least a decade now.


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