Brexit

It's obviously impossible to predict but on current evidence the Tories will wipe the floor with the opposition in 2020. I agree with GD that in England in particular there has been an obvious rightward shift in mentality; no liberal/left-leaning government is getting in until at least 2025.

Rocsteady wrote:It's obviously impossible to predict but on current evidence the Tories will wipe the floor with the opposition in 2020. I agree with GD that in England in particular there has been an obvious rightward shift in mentality; no liberal/left-leaning government is getting in until at least 2025.

The Tories are "clearly" going to get the most seats - but I'm not sure they'd get a majority.

I can quite see a Lab/Lib/SNP coaltion outweighing them (how/if they work together is a different issue)

There's the looming shadow of Brexit before 2020 though, if that goes to gooseberry fool then that would be a hell of a stick to beat May with ahead of the GE.

Frankly, if we get through Brexit and the economy is booming in 2020, the Tories deserve another 5 years.

I really don't see how anyone could take issue with Corbyn's stance on the Brexit vote. Parliament had to ratify it otherwise there would have been an absolute uproar and most of the Labour heartlands were in favour of leaving. I think he dealt quite softly with those that voted against him and has made it clear what he wants to achieve in our Brexit deal.

Parliament blocking article 50 would have been extremely inflammatory and was never going to happen.

captain red dog wrote:I really don't see how anyone could take issue with Corbyn's stance on the Brexit vote. Parliament had to ratify it otherwise there would have been an absolute uproar and most of the Labour heartlands were in favour of leaving. I think he dealt quite softly with those that voted against him and has made it clear what he wants to achieve in our Brexit deal.

Parliament blocking article 50 would have been extremely inflammatory and was never going to happen.

Corbyn' stance was to try and force all Labour MPs to vote along with the government. Including areas where the constituents voted Remain. And despite not getting any protective amendments put in place.

The bill would have gone through even if he had let Labour MPs have a free vote on the issue.

Honestly the way people talk about this you'd think the Leave vote was 98%. The country was pretty much split three ways between Leave, Remain and couldn't be arsed. There is no reason for there not to be opposition in Parliament.

It was probably the least enforced 3 line whip in the history of Westminster. He had absolutely no option but to use the strategy he did.

Parliament blocking it would have completely fed into the right wing conspiracy theories about the EU calling the shots and that the people don't get to make the decisions. Yes the vote was close, and it would be a sovereign parliament making the decision, but as we all know the extremists on both sides don't operate on reality and this would have been spun by them (and the press) as the end of democracy.

We were both on opposing sides of the vote, but now is really time for left wing Remainers and Leavers to unite in opposition as much as they can to hold this Government account to enforce the decent parts of the EU (such as workers rights, health and safety, human rights) into UK law and to ensure we don't get an all out Tory assault on the working class.

The decision to leave has been made and I personally think those on the left should begin to push for a referendum on the final deal rather than trying to block article 50.

I think it would have felt democratic if each MP voted as their constituency did in the referendum, then it would have passed and everyone could have felt fairly represented.

I'm in a Tory constituency which voted Remain, but our MP followed the party line and backed A50. Feels like he's ignoring the referendum result for his constituency.

Shadow wrote:I think it would have felt democratic if each MP voted as their constituency did in the referendum, then it would have passed and everyone could have felt fairly represented.

I'm in a Tory constituency which voted Remain, but our MP followed the party line and backed A50. Feels like he's ignoring the referendum result for his constituency.

I agree with you there, that's probably a better way to have done it but I don't see all the parties in parliament following that line.

Shadow wrote:I think it would have felt democratic if each MP voted as their constituency did in the referendum, then it would have passed and everyone could have felt fairly represented.

Absolutely this.

I expect Corbyn has been focusing on reducing his image as a weak leader. Allowing your MPs to vote as they please and not in line with your view as leader is the type of thing your average knuckle dragging citizen would consider a sign of weakness, when in fact it is completely the opposite.

You want the left to unite but are happy that Corbyn tried (and failed, that's what a weak leader he is) to enforce a whip forcing MPs to vote against their constituents?

Sorry but the left has never been more divided and are not going to unite under a joke like Corbyn. It's bloody silly to even make this a left/right issue anyway.

I'll be tempted in 2020 to vote for my rebel Labour MP (it would only be the second time I'd ever have voted Labour), but I'm not convinced I can vote for a party with Corbyn in charge. The Lib Dems are speaking more for me, the Labour leadership is pathetic, divisive and will get hammered st the next election, which will mean Corbyn has handed complete control of Brexit to the Tories and the keys to Number 10 until 2025.

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:

Shadow wrote:I think it would have felt democratic if each MP voted as their constituency did in the referendum, then it would have passed and everyone could have felt fairly represented.

Absolutely this.

I expect Corbyn has been focusing on reducing his image as a weak leader. Allowing your MPs to vote as they please and not in line with your view as leader is the type of thing your average knuckle dragging citizen would consider a sign of weakness, when in fact it is completely the opposite.

And yet he has come out of it looking weaker than ever. He submitted to the Tory party, failed with his three line whip and is now just sending a warning letter to the rebels.

If that Nuttall banana split gets in at Stoke election next week then it has to be all over for Corbyn.

captain red dog wrote:It was probably the least enforced 3 line whip in the history of Westminster. He had absolutely no option but to use the strategy he did.

Parliament blocking it would have completely fed into the right wing conspiracy theories about the EU calling the shots and that the people don't get to make the decisions. Yes the vote was close, and it would be a sovereign parliament making the decision, but as we all know the extremists on both sides don't operate on reality and this would have been spun by them (and the press) as the end of democracy.

We were both on opposing sides of the vote, but now is really time for left wing Remainers and Leavers to unite in opposition as much as they can to hold this Government account to enforce the decent parts of the EU (such as workers rights, health and safety, human rights) into UK law and to ensure we don't get an all out Tory assault on the working class.

The decision to leave has been made and I personally think those on the left should begin to push for a referendum on the final deal rather than trying to block article 50.

Except hasn't May said that MPs will get a vote to either accept the deal or leave with no deal? That's no choice at all, particularly given those in charge of actually getting a deal.

Moggy wrote:You want the left to unite but are happy that Corbyn tried (and failed, that's what a weak leader he is) to enforce a whip forcing MPs to vote against their constituents?

Sorry but the left has never been more divided and are not going to unite under a joke like Corbyn. It's bloody silly to even make this a left/right issue anyway.

I'll be tempted in 2020 to vote for my rebel Labour MP (it would only be the second time I'd ever have voted Labour), but I'm not convinced I can vote for a party with Corbyn in charge. The Lib Dems are speaking more for me, the Labour leadership is pathetic, divisive and will get hammered st the next election, which will mean Corbyn has handed complete control of Brexit to the Tories and the keys to Number 10 until 2025.

Like I say, I don't really see what option he had. Other parties had their own tactics and there was no way he could be seen to block article 50 because it would lead to Labour being decimated in the heartlands.

I'd have supported the Lib Dems in the early 00s, but after the coalition shambles I still can't forgive them.

Moggy wrote:

Oblomov Boblomov wrote:

Shadow wrote:I think it would have felt democratic if each MP voted as their constituency did in the referendum, then it would have passed and everyone could have felt fairly represented.

Absolutely this.

I expect Corbyn has been focusing on reducing his image as a weak leader. Allowing your MPs to vote as they please and not in line with your view as leader is the type of thing your average knuckle dragging citizen would consider a sign of weakness, when in fact it is completely the opposite.

And yet he has come out of it looking weaker than ever. He submitted to the Tory party, failed with his three line whip and is now just sending a warning letter to the rebels.

Precisely. He's strawberry floated up bigly, again.

I think we're in for a Tory government for a very long time.

captain red dog wrote:

Moggy wrote:You want the left to unite but are happy that Corbyn tried (and failed, that's what a weak leader he is) to enforce a whip forcing MPs to vote against their constituents?

Sorry but the left has never been more divided and are not going to unite under a joke like Corbyn. It's bloody silly to even make this a left/right issue anyway.

I'll be tempted in 2020 to vote for my rebel Labour MP (it would only be the second time I'd ever have voted Labour), but I'm not convinced I can vote for a party with Corbyn in charge. The Lib Dems are speaking more for me, the Labour leadership is pathetic, divisive and will get hammered st the next election, which will mean Corbyn has handed complete control of Brexit to the Tories and the keys to Number 10 until 2025.

Like I say, I don't really see what option he had. Other parties had their own tactics and there was no way he could be seen to block article 50 because it would lead to Labour being decimated in the heartlands.

I'd have supported the Lib Dems in the early 00s, but after the coalition shambles I still can't forgive them.

He could have said that he's leaving it up to individual MPs judgement.

He could have sacked those that defied him.

He could have faught the government to force concessions out of them.

He could have been more than 7/10 before the referendum.

He could resign for the good of his party and the country as a whole.

As it is, he just looks weaker than ever.

Even if he wins in Stoke I don't see how he can stay leader that much longer. His supporters seem to be abandoning him as most were remain supporters. He has no support in parliament. The next leadership challenge will fell him.

There is a massive vacuum being created right now in UK politics. With the Liberals having destroyed themselves in the Coalition and Labour being in a mess under Comrade Corbyn there is a huge number of centre-left voters who have absolutely no one representing them. More or less all reasonable people who abhor the social destruction being wrought by the Conservatives, have no time for the pathetic student politics that Labour have descended into and are informed enough to know how insane the whole Brexit debacle is.

Most people in my circle can't think of anyone why would consider voting for now.

lex-man wrote:Even if he wins in Stoke I don't see how he can stay leader that much longer. His supporters seem to be abandoning him as most were remain supporters. He has no support in parliament. The next leadership challenge will fell him.

It won't if it's a pair of nobodies who challenge him. Owen Jones and Angela Eagle were such uninspiring candidates to go up against him.

IMHO, it needs to be either Hillary Benn or Andy Burnham. I think either of those would have appeal to core labour voters in the north. Unfortunately, I don't think Chukka would.