Brexit

OrangeRakoon wrote:I agree with Lucien, it's vindictive and counter-productive. Dismissing any adverse affects as "they voted for it" isn't valid if you're also arguing that the leave campaign was misleading (which has also been done in this thread). If they were mislead in voting then they, presumably, /didn't/ vote to be worse off. You can lay some blame on people for not fully researching what the effects of the vote would be when they voted, but it's unfair to hold them entirely accountable when the referendum was so broad in scope, lacking any certainty or specifics in what a leave vote would actually entail, and promoted with a biased and (I would argue) dishonest narrative.

Taking the example of Cornwall by itself, it wouldn't have been too hard to research how much funding the county gets from the EU. They can then look at the Tory government and it wouldn't have taken much brain power to work out that the Torys are very unlikely to hand anything over to a bunch of poor people.

It's also true that Cornwall voted by quite a majority to leave the EU - but not everyone voted leave. When we complain about the lack of compromise and the government's "overwhelming majority" and "will of the people" rhetoric, it's hypocritical to then dismiss the complaints of everyone in cornwall (many of whom did vote to leave) because "they voted for it". I personally know people who live in cornwall and voted to remain, and I think their concerns over a lack of funding post-brexit are very valid.

They voted for it and so they are going to have to deal with it. I feel sorry for those who voted Remain, I have zero sympathy for those that voted Leave.

It's counter-productive to vote to be poorer in spite of all the warnings from experts.

What Moggy said. Those that were foolish enough to believe the utter nonsense that the Leave campaign made a poor decision and they are going to have to live with that and the effects that it brings.

Those in Cornwall who voted remain can feel aggrieved as they now have to endure changes that they didn't support or vote for.

Drumstick wrote:What Moggy said. Those that were foolish enough to believe the utter nonsense that the Leave campaign made a poor decision and they are going to have to live with that and the effects that it brings.

Those in Cornwall who voted remain can feel aggrieved as they now have to endure changes that they didn't support or vote for.

At the risk of sounding grim I have to ask how many of Cornwalls leave voters are going to have to live with it? It's a popular retirement destination and the stats elsewhere suggest that a lot of retirees voted leave. The area losing EU funding and suffering economically as a result of Brexit won't affect them as they've already made their money.

DML wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:Surely she can't do that even after triggering Article 50. We're still actually in the EU for at least another 2 years and bound by the same rules/laws during that period.

She basically a vocal bully. She doesn't actually have the power to do that.

My understanding of UK law/Parliament is that we're one of the few countries which do allow retrospective changes.

So May would be legally allowed to do it.

bear wrote:

Drumstick wrote:What Moggy said. Those that were foolish enough to believe the utter nonsense that the Leave campaign made a poor decision and they are going to have to live with that and the effects that it brings.

Those in Cornwall who voted remain can feel aggrieved as they now have to endure changes that they didn't support or vote for.

At the risk of sounding grim I have to ask how many of Cornwalls leave voters are going to have to live with it? It's a popular retirement destination and the stats elsewhere suggest that a lot of retirees voted leave. The area losing EU funding and suffering economically as a result of Brexit won't affect them as they've already made their money.

The Leave vote in Cornwall was something like 56%. I doubt they were all pensioners from outside of the area.

Plus it will have an impact on them, the money will have to be saved from somewhere. Pensioners love to moan about bin collections (they'll be lucky to get a once a month collection in the future!), the roads will fall into disrepair, local services cut etc etc.

They're responsible for their own vote, they're all adults and chose to believe what they wanted to believe, it's not like valid counter-arguments weren't being made at the time. Many leave voters were clearly mainly concerned about keeping immigrants out, which was either blinding them to the local economic impacts of leaving the EU, or they simply didn't care enough about it. Their selfishness and bigotry will damage the futures of many people in this country IMO, so they damn well deserve to feel any economic pain more than the rest of us.

What really pisses me off is that Northern Ireland voted to stay, and now we're getting yanked out of the EU against our will by idiots like those in Cornwall, forced to face all the troubles that come with it when things are rocky here between our communities at the best of times.

Grumpy David wrote:

DML wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:Surely she can't do that even after triggering Article 50. We're still actually in the EU for at least another 2 years and bound by the same rules/laws during that period.

She basically a vocal bully. She doesn't actually have the power to do that.

My understanding of UK law/Parliament is that we're one of the few countries which do allow retrospective changes.

So May would be legally allowed to do it.

We're not talking about UK law though. We're talking about EU law.

People moaning that others are laughing at the voters who wanted to live but are disgruntled the government wont pay them the say as the EU, strawberry float off If people would have looked past the almighty lord farage and his band of merry banana splits, you'd have seen quite clearly the funding would go, or at the best, drop like a lead balloon.

Gonna have to live with it.

Garth wrote:They're responsible for their own vote, they're all adults and chose to believe what they wanted to believe, it's not like valid counter-arguments weren't being made at the time. Many leave voters were clearly mainly concerned about keeping immigrants out, which was either blinding them to the local economic impacts of leaving the EU, or they simply didn't care enough about it. Their selfishness and bigotry will damage the futures of many people in this country IMO, so they damn well deserve to feel any economic pain more than the rest of us.

What really pisses me off is that Northern Ireland voted to stay, and now we're getting yanked out of the EU against our will by idiots like those in Cornwall, forced to face all the troubles that come with it when things are rocky here between our communities at the best of times.

Majority of the people I live all voted out. Funny thing is, when the gooseberry fool doe start to hit the fan, they'll be close to the end of their lives and us muppets will be left here to face the consequences of the vote.

Every single day I get angrier reading stuff and I now just expect the very worst. The EU will bend us over and give us the "hard" brexit the will of the people so desperately want.

Karneval?

I'm going to agree with Lucien. There is a nasty strain of glee exhibited by some people in pointing out the plight that's going to befall those who may have voted for Brexit/the Tories, and so on. Whilst it might feel really fun, in this era of polarised and divisive politics, to point and laugh at the opposing side's voters when they don't get the dream land they were sold, these are the same people that those on the remain side, or the left, need in order to start winning elections again.

I'm not happy that people in Cornwall are going to be worse off because of Brexit after they voted for it, and nor should anyone else be. Regardless of whether these people should have known better at the time, they're realising now just how harmful a Britain out of the EU, and they can either be brought into the fold, and become a voice to arrest or at least soften Brexit, or they can be driven further into the myths of the right, that they're only worse off because the EU is punishing them, by the mockery of those who voted differently.

I really don't want things to get much worse for people because it will only harm my own cause.

Conservatism and the right thrive on negativity. Psychologically, people become more conservative and less generous when they are pessimistic about the future. Fear makes people lean towards nostalgia and away from what is outside their experience. Brexit is pretty much a result of the recession and years of grinding austerity making the populous a lot more pessimistic about the future and less open minded. If things continue to get shittier this trend will only continue and we will see the emergence of more far right elements such as those on the continent.

This is why Labour supporters are wrong to think that people will turn against the Tories when they have had enough of the pain inflicted by them. The left does not win by making people angry and afraid; it only wins through unrelenting and unapologetic optimism. Any liberal who campaigns negatively is usually signing their own death warrant, which is one of the reasons why Remain failed to convince enough people (they chose to focus on the damage of leaving the EU rather than the benefits of staying in).

To be fair, knoyleo has made an excellent point. However, I think my ire and derision is for those who still now think it's the best thing to be out of the EU even after news like this. You're still correct, though.

IMO the main thing that will push leave voters to even more right wing politics is if the Conservatives fail to live up to leave voters' lofty expectations for Brexit. If, post-brexit, immigrants are still coming in, the economy has weakened, jobs are lost, big businesses are getting big tax breaks and large areas of the country are left poorer, I think leave voters are far more likely to say Conservatives botched their Brexit vision and vote for someone who says they'll do a proper job of getting rid of the immigrants and give British jobs to British people etc, rather than turn to Labour because Jeremy Corbyn is a well-mannered positive gentleman His approach is wholly uninspiring.

We've got to challenge their beliefs, make noise any time Brexit goes wrong about how bad of a decision it was, really inspire more people to get out and vote against going further down the anti-immigrant path (48% voted against Brexit in the first place!) - not just roll over, give leave voters a hug and pretend it's all going to be OK.

We need real, passionate, fiery opposition!

I really hope everyone will watch Panorama Immigration Town: Slough on BBC iPlayer. Very interesting viewing.

Garth wrote:We need real, passionate, fiery opposition!

Instead we have what must be one of the weakest opposition's ever with a deluded pleb at the helm.

PaperMacheMario wrote:.

Drumstick wrote:

Garth wrote:We need real, passionate, fiery opposition!

Instead we have what must be one of the weakest opposition's ever with a deluded pleb at the helm.

PaperMacheMario wrote:.

That's one of the biggest problems we have at the moment. The opposition has absolutely no bite and are unlikely to change before 2020. And after that will probably not have enough MPs to really do anything.

Moggy wrote:

Drumstick wrote:

Garth wrote:We need real, passionate, fiery opposition!

Instead we have what must be one of the weakest opposition's ever with a deluded pleb at the helm.

PaperMacheMario wrote:.

That's one of the biggest problems we have at the moment. The opposition has absolutely no bite and are unlikely to change before 2020. And after that will probably not have enough MPs to really do anything.

Vote Green.