Brexit

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

It's not a football match mate.

Moggy wrote:The latest argument I am seeing from fanatical Leavers is that the general election means that over 80% of the UK population now supports Brexit. Their argument is that as the Conservatives and Labour both got over 40% each, people must be in support of their Brexit policy which means that 80% now want to leave.

I keep seeing that too

I think all parties "supported" brexit didn't they?

Lib Dems and Greens were both going to go through the motions and then offer a referendum on the final deal. Either way I've accepted that it's happening and if it's going to happen I'd rather have a party that was going to do the transition properly by respecting the EU laws we are protected by and also by being prepared to fund the inevitable financial instability in the first X years.

If we got another referendum on the final deal I would imagine I would vote to remain still (unless somehow the new deal was as good as we have it right now)

Cuttooth wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

It's not a football match mate.

I'm, saying it doesn't matter whether the remain argument is strong. As that is no longer the argument.

The discussion is what nature or form Brexit should take. Not whether it is taking place or not. You quibble about being called remoaners but it's pretty apt when people are continuing to moan about it.

Why not quit moaning about it and just look forward to feeling smug and saying I told you so. Endlessly.

Cuttooth wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

It's not a football match mate.

It’s such a bizarre mentality that thinks the book should be absolutely closed on one of the biggest decisions this country has ever made. It was a massively tight result that took a non-binding snapshot of opinion on one single day.

But nah, will of the people, crush the saboteurs, they need us more than we need them, freedom and GET US OUT NOW!!!!!1!!

Denster wrote:

Cuttooth wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

It's not a football match mate.

I'm, saying it doesn't matter whether the remain argument is strong. As that is no longer the argument.

The discussion is what nature or form Brexit should take. Not whether it is taking place or not. You quibble about being called remoaners but it's pretty apt when people are continuing to moan about it.

Why not quit moaning about it and just look forward to feeling smug and saying I told you so. Endlessly.

Why shouldn’t people moan about a result that was brought about because of lies, misinformation and political opportunism?

If we genuinely believe it will leave this country worse off, then we have the right to moan about it, rather than just sitting there accepting the crap that is coming our way.

I’d far rather be a Remoaner than somebody who blindly follows his chosen party into whatever mess they are leading us into next.

Moggy wrote:

Cuttooth wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

It's not a football match mate.

It’s such a bizarre mentality that thinks the book should be absolutely closed on one of the biggest decisions this country has ever made. It was a massively tight result that took a non-binding snapshot of opinion on one single day.

But nah, will of the people, crush the saboteurs, they need us more than we need them, freedom and GET US OUT NOW!!!!!1!!

And yet if the remain vote had won - you'd want the book closed surely?

The book is closed. No amount of whining is going to open it again.

Denster wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Cuttooth wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

It's not a football match mate.

It’s such a bizarre mentality that thinks the book should be absolutely closed on one of the biggest decisions this country has ever made. It was a massively tight result that took a non-binding snapshot of opinion on one single day.

But nah, will of the people, crush the saboteurs, they need us more than we need them, freedom and GET US OUT NOW!!!!!1!!

And yet if the remain vote had won - you'd want the book closed surely?

The book is closed. No amount of whining is going to open it again.

The Leave side moaned and whined for 40 years without anybody stopping them. We haven't even left the EU yet and we are being told to shut up.

You might be happy to go along with this Denny, but some of us are not.

And the book is not yet closed, we have not yet left the EU and the door is still open for us. I don't think our political leaders will go back on it, but there's still a chance they could. And a softer Brexit is absolutely still up for grabs.

Qikz wrote:

Blue Eyes wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:So May is visiting Macron who has publicly told her that Brexit can still be called off.

We're being offered an out and that strawberry floating bitch won't take it.

She can't just take it there and then though can she? Imagine if she just stood there and went "yeah, alright". Riots.

I'd take riots over a long term depression.

So would I. Big time. However, faith in the political system would surely suffer hugely, too. I know right? As if it could get any worse than it is now. Still, either way it's bad. Just that Brexit would be the worse of two evils.

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

No democratic decision should be forever.

Denster wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Cuttooth wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

It's not a football match mate.

It’s such a bizarre mentality that thinks the book should be absolutely closed on one of the biggest decisions this country has ever made. It was a massively tight result that took a non-binding snapshot of opinion on one single day.

But nah, will of the people, crush the saboteurs, they need us more than we need them, freedom and GET US OUT NOW!!!!!1!!

And yet if the remain vote had won - you'd want the book closed surely?

The book is closed. No amount of whining is going to open it again.

What if Brexit proves impossible to deliver?

And whining for decades has got Brexit, I will whine on and on until we make a sane pact with other countries once again. Anything else is nonsensical and backwards in an ever shrinking world.

Denster wrote:And yet if the remain vote had won - you'd want the book closed surely?

I don't think this is true. If you are narrowly outvoted in a democracy you don't just give up, you continue to try to convince people in the hope that the next vote might go your way.

At the moment a very soft Brexit is up for grabs. I think leaving the EU is a dumb idea, so why wouldn't I argue strongly for the benefits of the EU in the hope that my opinion might contribute to us getting the softest possible Brexit?

DML wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

No democratic decision should be forever.

We're not talking about forever. But we have had a referendum and we did vote to leave. That should be respected and we should allow a reasonable period of time to elapse before revisiting it.

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

No democratic decision should be forever.

We're not talking about forever. But we have had a referendum and we did vote to leave. That should be respected and we should allow a reasonable period of time to elapse before revisiting it.

The vote to leave was based on one if the biggest instances of fraud the country has ever seen though. The leave campaign knowingly and consistently lied to the electorate to get the result they wanted. How can any decision that came as a result if that be considered legitimate?

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

No democratic decision should be forever.

We're not talking about forever. But we have had a referendum and we did vote to leave. That should be respected and we should allow a reasonable period of time to elapse before revisiting it.

No it shouldn’t be respected by ordinary people. We live in a country that allows free expression and freedom of thought. We all have a right to complain and moan about any decision that is made. Indeed one of the important aspects of living in a free society is that people are free to express their dissatisfaction at political decisions, whether they are democratic or not.

And let's not pretend that the Leave supporters would have respected the result if the result had been the other way. And that's fair enough, they are entitled to their opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.

There is also a massive question over what the Brexit vote meant. Xenophobes tell us it meant that people no longer want open borders. But that wasn’t the question on the referendum paper. Some people tell us that it was about free trade with the rest of the world. But that wasn’t the question on the referendum paper. Some people tell us it meant we should get out of the European courts. But that wasn’t the question on the referendum paper.

All we know is that a tiny tiny tiny majority that voted, voted for the UK to leave the EU. What that actually means is wide open.

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

No democratic decision should be forever.

We're not talking about forever. But we have had a referendum and we did vote to leave. That should be respected and we should allow a reasonable period of time to elapse before revisiting it.

Okay, let me give another example.

At the moment, Theresa May is struggling to form a government. If she is unable to form a government - and no-one else is either, should we sit in limbo forever? No, we should call another general election to make a new decision fairly sharpish - whether that ends up going Tory or Labour's way - the current situation is in the best interests of no-one.

Right now, Brexit is in the exact same predicament. Its not only hard to implement under the current non-government, but its also clear that there are way more complications than first though, to the extent it may be impossible to implement, or certainly to complete before the deadline. Apparently, under these very familiar circumstances, we should sit in limbo.

The whole country is a crock of shite Denster, time to admit defeat.

DML wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:

Denster wrote:

DML wrote:I think whether people like to admit it or not, the remain argument looking preeeetty strong right now.

You do know that we've had the argument and that Leave won?

No democratic decision should be forever.

We're not talking about forever. But we have had a referendum and we did vote to leave. That should be respected and we should allow a reasonable period of time to elapse before revisiting it.

Okay, let me give another example.

At the moment, Theresa May is struggling to form a government. If she is unable to form a government - and no-one else is either, should we sit in limbo forever? No, we should call another general election to make a new decision fairly sharpish - whether that ends up going Tory or Labour's way - the current situation is in the best interests of no-one.

Right now, Brexit is in the exact same predicament. Its not only hard to implement under the current non-government, but its also clear that there are way more complications than first though, to the extent it may be impossible to implement, or certainly to complete before the deadline. Apparently, under these very familiar circumstances, we should sit in limbo.

The whole country is a crock of shite Denster, time to admit defeat.

If there was another general election it wouldn't change the result of the referendum. Unless the Lib Dems get a majority. Labour would still go ahead with Brexit.

As for the rest of the nitpicking - utter bollocks. We've had the vote. Unless another party makes another referendum part of their manifesto - it's not going to be overturned. All the wishing and moaning in the world is not going to change that.

What has to be negotiated is a deal that hopefully suits both parties.
I'm sorry but the ship has sailed. You really need to start dealing with it and move on.



I hope the irony of that last sentiment is not lost on you.

The UK should probably leave the EU to avoid the right-wing having a literal meltdown.

The UK should also remain in the single market and the EEA, join EFTA, remain bound by the ECHR, and accept the fundamental freedoms.

We won't be in the EU - fulfilling the letter of the referendum, which can't be taken to mean anything apart from "leave the EU" - and we will actually have a slight increase in autonomy (IIRC there are certain issues that are devolved to EFTA nations that aren't to EU nations) to satisfy those for whom this is for whatever reason important.

That is a compromise that fulfils any democratic obligation but also ensures our economy won't collapse.

Denster wrote:What has to be negotiated is a deal that hopefully suits both parties.

Theresa May can't even negotiate with the DUP, she's got no strawberry floating chance with the entire EU.

I'm sorry but the ship has sailed. You really need to start dealing with it and move on.

No, we don't need to. If you think something is wrong then you shouldn't just sit back and accept it. Even if all you do is moan on an internet forum, you should do so if you want to.

I also imagine you would be singing a different tune if your strong and stable leader hadn't said Brexit means Brexit.

I think the control of our borders issue is the sticking point there. As ridiculous as it is.