Brexit

Errkal wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Squinty wrote:

captain red dog wrote:I'm not entirely happy with that deal, but I understand more information is to come on Monday. I understand Junker wanted more but now the ball is in the EU's court to make a reciprocal counter offer so I guess that will leave scope for our deal to improve somewhat.

I think we need a bit more information and clarification than what we have already got.

Can't imagine how those affected are feeling. The sad thing is, this entire fiasco paints us all as incredibly xenophobic.

I think there are some that would say that, but to be fair the EU seem to have wanted us to make an offer first so I'm guessing that May hasn't gone straight in with her best offer. Since the EU are vocally unimpressed I would guess there is some movement in the pipeline on this.

For a normal person maybe, but a deluded bitch like may....

May very heavily hinted that there will be room for negotiation in her press conference. For all the bluster coming out of the EU it's interesting they haven't mentioned what their offer is for UK citizens in Europe.

Edit: And whilst the Daily Mail are reasonably fairly criticised for race baiting, I'm shocked nobody in the media has picked up on Laura Kuenssberg's question that some people think the deal doesn't go far enough in terms of exclusion.

captain red dog wrote:

Errkal wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Squinty wrote:

captain red dog wrote:I'm not entirely happy with that deal, but I understand more information is to come on Monday. I understand Junker wanted more but now the ball is in the EU's court to make a reciprocal counter offer so I guess that will leave scope for our deal to improve somewhat.

I think we need a bit more information and clarification than what we have already got.

Can't imagine how those affected are feeling. The sad thing is, this entire fiasco paints us all as incredibly xenophobic.

I think there are some that would say that, but to be fair the EU seem to have wanted us to make an offer first so I'm guessing that May hasn't gone straight in with her best offer. Since the EU are vocally unimpressed I would guess there is some movement in the pipeline on this.

For a normal person maybe, but a deluded bitch like may....

May very heavily hinted that there will be room for negotiation in her press conference. For all the bluster coming out of the EU it's interesting they haven't mentioned what their offer is for UK citizens in Europe.

Edit: And whilst the Daily Mail are reasonably fairly criticised for race baiting, I'm shocked nobody in the media has picked up on Laura Kuenssberg's question that some people think the deal doesn't go far enough in terms of exclusion.

Exactly my reaction to them being unimpressed would be well what are you going to do for our citizens? Although the full details are not available it looks to me like the EU citizens here will essentially maintain the full rights that they currently have but just with a new title. I can only assume that the EU wants us to offer to make them a full UK citizen. But if some people don't want it then they will need to offer an alternative like this.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Errkal wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Squinty wrote:

captain red dog wrote:I'm not entirely happy with that deal, but I understand more information is to come on Monday. I understand Junker wanted more but now the ball is in the EU's court to make a reciprocal counter offer so I guess that will leave scope for our deal to improve somewhat.

I think we need a bit more information and clarification than what we have already got.

Can't imagine how those affected are feeling. The sad thing is, this entire fiasco paints us all as incredibly xenophobic.

I think there are some that would say that, but to be fair the EU seem to have wanted us to make an offer first so I'm guessing that May hasn't gone straight in with her best offer. Since the EU are vocally unimpressed I would guess there is some movement in the pipeline on this.

For a normal person maybe, but a deluded bitch like may....

May very heavily hinted that there will be room for negotiation in her press conference. For all the bluster coming out of the EU it's interesting they haven't mentioned what their offer is for UK citizens in Europe.

Edit: And whilst the Daily Mail are reasonably fairly criticised for race baiting, I'm shocked nobody in the media has picked up on Laura Kuenssberg's question that some people think the deal doesn't go far enough in terms of exclusion.

Exactly my reaction to them being unimpressed would be well what are you going to do for our citizens? Although the full details are not available it looks to me like the EU citizens here will essentially maintain the full rights that they currently have but just with a new title. I can only assume that the EU wants us to offer to make them a full UK citizen. But if some people don't want it then they will need to offer an alternative like this.

I don't get the idea that the EU should offer something first. We are the ones leaving, the onus is surely on us to make the first offers/moves.

Moggy wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Errkal wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Squinty wrote:

captain red dog wrote:I'm not entirely happy with that deal, but I understand more information is to come on Monday. I understand Junker wanted more but now the ball is in the EU's court to make a reciprocal counter offer so I guess that will leave scope for our deal to improve somewhat.

I think we need a bit more information and clarification than what we have already got.

Can't imagine how those affected are feeling. The sad thing is, this entire fiasco paints us all as incredibly xenophobic.

I think there are some that would say that, but to be fair the EU seem to have wanted us to make an offer first so I'm guessing that May hasn't gone straight in with her best offer. Since the EU are vocally unimpressed I would guess there is some movement in the pipeline on this.

For a normal person maybe, but a deluded bitch like may....

May very heavily hinted that there will be room for negotiation in her press conference. For all the bluster coming out of the EU it's interesting they haven't mentioned what their offer is for UK citizens in Europe.

Edit: And whilst the Daily Mail are reasonably fairly criticised for race baiting, I'm shocked nobody in the media has picked up on Laura Kuenssberg's question that some people think the deal doesn't go far enough in terms of exclusion.

Exactly my reaction to them being unimpressed would be well what are you going to do for our citizens? Although the full details are not available it looks to me like the EU citizens here will essentially maintain the full rights that they currently have but just with a new title. I can only assume that the EU wants us to offer to make them a full UK citizen. But if some people don't want it then they will need to offer an alternative like this.

I don't get the idea that the EU should offer something first. We are the ones leaving, the onus is surely on us to make the first offers/moves.

But they aren't offering something first, we have offered something first and they by all accounts have turned their noses up at it.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Errkal wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Squinty wrote:

captain red dog wrote:I'm not entirely happy with that deal, but I understand more information is to come on Monday. I understand Junker wanted more but now the ball is in the EU's court to make a reciprocal counter offer so I guess that will leave scope for our deal to improve somewhat.

I think we need a bit more information and clarification than what we have already got.

Can't imagine how those affected are feeling. The sad thing is, this entire fiasco paints us all as incredibly xenophobic.

I think there are some that would say that, but to be fair the EU seem to have wanted us to make an offer first so I'm guessing that May hasn't gone straight in with her best offer. Since the EU are vocally unimpressed I would guess there is some movement in the pipeline on this.

For a normal person maybe, but a deluded bitch like may....

May very heavily hinted that there will be room for negotiation in her press conference. For all the bluster coming out of the EU it's interesting they haven't mentioned what their offer is for UK citizens in Europe.

Edit: And whilst the Daily Mail are reasonably fairly criticised for race baiting, I'm shocked nobody in the media has picked up on Laura Kuenssberg's question that some people think the deal doesn't go far enough in terms of exclusion.

Exactly my reaction to them being unimpressed would be well what are you going to do for our citizens? Although the full details are not available it looks to me like the EU citizens here will essentially maintain the full rights that they currently have but just with a new title. I can only assume that the EU wants us to offer to make them a full UK citizen. But if some people don't want it then they will need to offer an alternative like this.

I don't get the idea that the EU should offer something first. We are the ones leaving, the onus is surely on us to make the first offers/moves.

But they aren't offering something first, we have offered something first and they by all accounts have turned their noses up at it.

They've said it's not good enough, that doesn't strike me as them saying they are going to give UK citizens in the EU a bad deal.

The EU hold all the cards in this, they have absolutely no reason to make any deal that doesn't suit them.

Moggy wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Errkal wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Squinty wrote:

captain red dog wrote:I'm not entirely happy with that deal, but I understand more information is to come on Monday. I understand Junker wanted more but now the ball is in the EU's court to make a reciprocal counter offer so I guess that will leave scope for our deal to improve somewhat.

I think we need a bit more information and clarification than what we have already got.

Can't imagine how those affected are feeling. The sad thing is, this entire fiasco paints us all as incredibly xenophobic.

I think there are some that would say that, but to be fair the EU seem to have wanted us to make an offer first so I'm guessing that May hasn't gone straight in with her best offer. Since the EU are vocally unimpressed I would guess there is some movement in the pipeline on this.

For a normal person maybe, but a deluded bitch like may....

May very heavily hinted that there will be room for negotiation in her press conference. For all the bluster coming out of the EU it's interesting they haven't mentioned what their offer is for UK citizens in Europe.

Edit: And whilst the Daily Mail are reasonably fairly criticised for race baiting, I'm shocked nobody in the media has picked up on Laura Kuenssberg's question that some people think the deal doesn't go far enough in terms of exclusion.

Exactly my reaction to them being unimpressed would be well what are you going to do for our citizens? Although the full details are not available it looks to me like the EU citizens here will essentially maintain the full rights that they currently have but just with a new title. I can only assume that the EU wants us to offer to make them a full UK citizen. But if some people don't want it then they will need to offer an alternative like this.

I don't get the idea that the EU should offer something first. We are the ones leaving, the onus is surely on us to make the first offers/moves.

But they aren't offering something first, we have offered something first and they by all accounts have turned their noses up at it.

They've said it's not good enough, that doesn't strike me as them saying they are going to give UK citizens in the EU a bad deal.

The EU hold all the cards in this, they have absolutely no reason to make any deal that doesn't suit them.

What I meant was we've offered them something and they've said that it's not good enough so my reaction would be well what would you do then? there's no point spending ages with us going back and forth with them saying no every time.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Errkal wrote:

captain red dog wrote:

Squinty wrote:

captain red dog wrote:I'm not entirely happy with that deal, but I understand more information is to come on Monday. I understand Junker wanted more but now the ball is in the EU's court to make a reciprocal counter offer so I guess that will leave scope for our deal to improve somewhat.

I think we need a bit more information and clarification than what we have already got.

Can't imagine how those affected are feeling. The sad thing is, this entire fiasco paints us all as incredibly xenophobic.

I think there are some that would say that, but to be fair the EU seem to have wanted us to make an offer first so I'm guessing that May hasn't gone straight in with her best offer. Since the EU are vocally unimpressed I would guess there is some movement in the pipeline on this.

For a normal person maybe, but a deluded bitch like may....

May very heavily hinted that there will be room for negotiation in her press conference. For all the bluster coming out of the EU it's interesting they haven't mentioned what their offer is for UK citizens in Europe.

Edit: And whilst the Daily Mail are reasonably fairly criticised for race baiting, I'm shocked nobody in the media has picked up on Laura Kuenssberg's question that some people think the deal doesn't go far enough in terms of exclusion.

Exactly my reaction to them being unimpressed would be well what are you going to do for our citizens? Although the full details are not available it looks to me like the EU citizens here will essentially maintain the full rights that they currently have but just with a new title. I can only assume that the EU wants us to offer to make them a full UK citizen. But if some people don't want it then they will need to offer an alternative like this.

I don't get the idea that the EU should offer something first. We are the ones leaving, the onus is surely on us to make the first offers/moves.

But they aren't offering something first, we have offered something first and they by all accounts have turned their noses up at it.

They've said it's not good enough, that doesn't strike me as them saying they are going to give UK citizens in the EU a bad deal.

The EU hold all the cards in this, they have absolutely no reason to make any deal that doesn't suit them.

What I meant was we've offered them something and they've said that it's not good enough so my reaction would be well what would you do then? there's no point spending ages with us going back and forth with them saying no every time.

I think we should do the right thing and guarantee all EU citizens that are currently here can stay. The EU will then do the same and the issue is solved.

Doesn't the current offer only count for people who've lived here since 2014.

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:I think we should do the right thing and guarantee all EU citizens that are currently here can stay. The EU will then do the same and the issue is solved.

With a date limit though? You shouldn't be able to move here in February 2019 then get the right to settle a month later.

I couldn't really give a gooseberry fool about the date limit, I'd be happy to set it at February 2019.

To satisfy those concerned with foreigners, the referendum date would probably be a good compromise.

Lucien wrote:

lex-man wrote:Doesn't the current offer only count for people who've lived here since 2014.

Before March 2014. Or before, effectively, March 2016 if the grace period is what it appears to be.

I read earlier on a few news sites that it will be that you need to have moved here before a cut off period, then as long as you stay for five years you will be able to gain the status. So the cut off date could still be set in the future, and I assume that it will be. So you will still have the opportunity to move to the uk and gain the status but obviously u will need to do it soon.

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:I think we should do the right thing and guarantee all EU citizens that are currently here can stay. The EU will then do the same and the issue is solved.

With a date limit though? You shouldn't be able to move here in February 2019 then get the right to settle a month later.

I couldn't really give a gooseberry fool about the date limit, I'd be happy to set it at February 2019.

To satisfy those concerned with foreigners, the referendum date would probably be a good compromise.

If you set it at February 2019 then an EU citizen could move here for one month, then move away, and know they'll have free access to the NHS, and a host of other benefits everyone else has to earn over five years.

No they wouldn't.

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:I think we should do the right thing and guarantee all EU citizens that are currently here can stay. The EU will then do the same and the issue is solved.

With a date limit though? You shouldn't be able to move here in February 2019 then get the right to settle a month later.

I couldn't really give a gooseberry fool about the date limit, I'd be happy to set it at February 2019.

To satisfy those concerned with foreigners, the referendum date would probably be a good compromise.

If you set it at February 2019 then an EU citizen could move here for one month, then move away, and know they'll have free access to the NHS, and a host of other benefits everyone else has to earn over five years.

No they wouldn't.

Wouldn't is different from couldn't. Yet again we see my risk aversion vs your prognosticating.

In order to stay in a country the there are usually (and would be in this case) limits on how long you can spend out of the country.

There are also rules on NHS access for immigrants.

So no, your imaginary foreigner that comes her for a month just to get NHS access in the far future doesn't exist, couldn't exist and presents zero risk.

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:I think we should do the right thing and guarantee all EU citizens that are currently here can stay. The EU will then do the same and the issue is solved.

With a date limit though? You shouldn't be able to move here in February 2019 then get the right to settle a month later.

I couldn't really give a gooseberry fool about the date limit, I'd be happy to set it at February 2019.

To satisfy those concerned with foreigners, the referendum date would probably be a good compromise.

If you set it at February 2019 then an EU citizen could move here for one month, then move away, and know they'll have free access to the NHS, and a host of other benefits everyone else has to earn over five years.

No they wouldn't.

Wouldn't is different from couldn't. Yet again we see my risk aversion vs your prognosticating.

In order to stay in a country the there are usually (and would be in this case) limits on how long you can spend out of the country.

There are also rules on NHS access for immigrants.

So no, your imaginary foreigner that comes her for a month just to get NHS access in the far future doesn't exist, couldn't exist and presents zero risk.

I was thinking you could then just apply for citizenship. But, there's a £1200 charge for that so I retract what I said above.

Even so I'm still for a set date, just on principal. If someone from China has to work for five years to settle in the UK, I don't think it's fair to let someone else get that after one month. I can totally understand the view being in the EU causes an exception, but I still think one month is taking the piss.

You can't just apply for citizenship. You'd have to have been here for 5 years (not the month you said), pass the citizenship test and pay at least £1200.

Nobody is doing all that just so they can access the NHS when they immediately move back abroad.

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:You can't just apply for citizenship. You'd have to have been here for 5 years (not the month you said), pass the citizenship test and pay at least £1200.

This is a good point. I was thinking if you had permanent residency you could apply for citizenship immediately. Assuming you do need to wait five years for citizenship, that's now two reasons my point was defeated.

Yet again we see your risk aversion losing 2-0 against my prognosticating.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
But they aren't offering something first, we have offered something first and they by all accounts have turned their noses up at it.

Going back to this, I was wrong to suggest the EU wasn't offering anything before us. The EU already set out their proposals on 12 June.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publica ... -rights_en

It's the first time I've seen that, no idea why our media is ignoring it in favour of screaming "WHY GUARANTEE THEIR RIGHTS WHEN THEY DON'T GUARANTEE OURS!".

I love how they mentioned this as their simple thing to clear up before the complex talks begin, then it immediately turns into a huge debate between both sides with lots of complex aspects like spouse residency, proof of stay, jurisdiction and a plethora of different interests voicing their opinion.

Those who insisted this could all be done within the two year time limit must be finally waking up to what they've let themselves in for.

Meep wrote:I love how they mentioned this as their simple thing to clear up before the complex talks begin, then it immediately turns into a huge debate between both sides with lots of complex aspects like spouse residency, proof of stay, jurisdiction and a plethora of different interests voicing their opinion.

Those who insisted this could all be done within the two year time limit must be finally waking up to what they've let themselves in for.

The thing that worries me, is that they aren't.

Moggy wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
But they aren't offering something first, we have offered something first and they by all accounts have turned their noses up at it.

Going back to this, I was wrong to suggest the EU wasn't offering anything before us. The EU already set out their proposals on 12 June.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publica ... -rights_en

It's the first time I've seen that, no idea why our media is ignoring it in favour of screaming "WHY GUARANTEE THEIR RIGHTS WHEN THEY DON'T GUARANTEE OURS!".

Thanks, whilst I get that many media outlets that back Brexit haven't mentioned it, I don't understand why some others, including the bbc haven't mentioned it.

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
But they aren't offering something first, we have offered something first and they by all accounts have turned their noses up at it.

Going back to this, I was wrong to suggest the EU wasn't offering anything before us. The EU already set out their proposals on 12 June.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publica ... -rights_en

It's the first time I've seen that, no idea why our media is ignoring it in favour of screaming "WHY GUARANTEE THEIR RIGHTS WHEN THEY DON'T GUARANTEE OURS!".

Thanks, whilst I get that many media outlets that back Brexit haven't mentioned it, I don't understand why some others, including the bbc haven't mentioned it.

I don't get it either, I only saw it this morning when somebody was posting about it on Twitter. Odd.

Moggy wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
But they aren't offering something first, we have offered something first and they by all accounts have turned their noses up at it.

Going back to this, I was wrong to suggest the EU wasn't offering anything before us. The EU already set out their proposals on 12 June.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publica ... -rights_en

It's the first time I've seen that, no idea why our media is ignoring it in favour of screaming "WHY GUARANTEE THEIR RIGHTS WHEN THEY DON'T GUARANTEE OURS!".

Thanks, whilst I get that many media outlets that back Brexit haven't mentioned it, I don't understand why some others, including the bbc haven't mentioned it.

I don't get it either, I only saw it this morning when somebody was posting about it on Twitter. Odd.

I've also read through it and don't understand it. There's too many big words in it for me. How does their proposal differ from ours?