Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:49 pm

Hyperion wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Hyperion wrote:So you look for the best option to potentially remain/get back in the EU?
What is the best option for that? People seeing that they will be considerably worse off outside the EU, living standards falling, investment in local areas falling? Pursue a hard Brexit and maybe people will change their minds and support for remaining will become overwhelming. One would hope that this would happen before the UK leaves but it might take a number of years after. I believe the UK will in the long-term be a member of the EU, I just hope it doesn't take a wasted 30 years to do so.


It’s not going to work like that though. Assuming things will be as bad as we assume, the blame will be placed on the EU for “bullying”, Remain supporters for “talking the country down” and on May (or whoever takes over if she doesn’t survive) for being the person in charge and strawberry floating up the exit.

Maybe one day we will get back into the EU, but I wouldn’t count on it. Rejoining will take a massive media effort to show people that they were lied to during this campaign. We would also have to sign up for the Euro which will not be popular even if our economy is collapsing.

And more importantly, it will take all 27 countries (maybe even more countries by the time we reapply) of the EU to approve our membership. I can’t see them rushing to take us back after all of this bullshit. :lol:


The EU would definitely have the UK back, it wouldn't take a massive media effort either. People already know they know they were lied to and it's only the hardcore Leavophiles and racists that don't/will not accept it. The natural wastage of Leavers will also diminish their voice and be replaced by the younger remain support.
I think and hope that the evidence from the GE shows that the influence of the Mail/S*n/Express is in real decline and the rhetoric of bullying, talking the country down, moaning, enemies of the people will be lost.
Having to take the Euro is/will be an issue


A massive downturn in the UK economy will either result in people realising that they were duped over the EU issue or will reinforce the "EU ARE BULLYING US!!" rhetoric. I am in a miserable and paranoid mood over the whole thing and so I think enough people will be fooled by that to keep us out of the EU for the foreseeable future.

I am not convinced the EU would take us back either. It only takes one country out of the 27 to say no and then it doesn't happen. With the way we are pissing people off, I wouldn't be confident that they will all want us back. The French under Charles de Gaulle kept us out of the precursor of the EU for many years...

Besides, what do we care? You're Irish and I'm moving to Germany in a couple of months :toot:


True. :toot:

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:03 pm

Lucien wrote:
Moggy wrote:Post referendum he is to blame for a lot of things. Three line whips to try and keep his MPs on the Tory hard Brexit track for instance?


It was in the Labour manifesto that they'd end freedom of movement. He had to enforce that and come down hard on frontbenchers who went against it.


And yet he was enforcing a three line whip on Brexit issues way before we even knew there was going to be an election…

Look up how many times Corbyn rebelled against his own party in votes. And then tell me that he is right to be forcing people to vote against their consciences.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:59 pm


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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:44 pm



I'm starting to think a second referendum is inevitable.

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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:54 pm

The Lib Dem argument was that maybe they'll go back to the electorate on whether we like the exit deal once it's decided by 2019, but as I can't see how the question can be any more complex than a Yes/No, and then what on earth happens if it's a No, I don't see that being practical.

There is only one way I can see this being stopped is if somehow the EU and UK come up with a Cameron 2.0 deal, and then do a referendum on that again. But you're really clutching at straws with these type of scenarios.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Errkal » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:59 pm

It doesn't really matter what the normal person thinks, it needs government officials, papers, businesses people that influence them to realise it is going to cost them money paper and influence then suddenly it will end.

I think that day will come as it seems every few days another high up seems to twist their view to it being had I just hope it doesn't happen too late

I think the eu would let us drop the idea and let us stay as they are going to have reform work to do to fill the gap we leave however they probably won't just grab a hand and say yes there will be some cost to us as a now don't do it again thing but I can see them allowing it.

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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:13 pm

Welt am Sonntag via Breitbart wrote:Microsoft founder Bill Gates has warned that Africa’s population explosion will overwhelm Europe unless the continent makes it more difficult for migrants to reach its shores.

The American billionaire’s comments come as European leaders discuss what to do about the surging number of Africans arriving in Italy each week, with Rome calling for other European Union (EU) nations to open their ports to docking migrants so as to ease pressure on the Mediterranean nation.

In an interview with the German Welt am Sonntag newspaper, Gates said massive population growth in Africa will result in “enormous [migratory] pressure” on Europe unless countries increase overseas development aid payments.

Praising Germany having achieved its commitment to devote 0.7 per cent of GDP to foreign aid as “phenomenal”, the 61-year-old called on “other European nations to follow its example”.

But Gates also spoke of a dilemma caused by ‘the German attitude to refugees’, referring to Chancellor Angela Merkel’s decision to open Europe’s borders to illegal migrants arriving from the third world.

“On the one hand you want to demonstrate generosity and take in refugees, but the more generous you are, the more word gets around about this — which in turn motivates more people to leave Africa,” Gates told the Sunday newspaper.

“Germany cannot possibly take in the huge, massive number of people who are wanting to make their way to Europe.”

Because of this, Gates stressed that “Europe must make it more difficult for Africans to reach the continent via the current transit routes”.

Italy is demanding that other EU nations open their ports to migrants ferried from Libya as the country struggles to cope with having already received over 80,000 people this year.

Calling for African newcomers to be spread throughout Europe, the Mediterranean nation’s globalist centre-left government insisted that the EU migrant relocation programme — which is largely limited to people from Eritrea and Syria — should be expanded to include other nationalities, such as Nigerians.

“Without a swift collective action, we can only expect more tragedies at sea,” he declared, noting that around 2,000 migrants have lost their lives on the sea route from Libya to Italy this year.

The Italian diplomat repeated calls for an “urgent distribution system” for incoming migrants and asylum seekers, and “additional legal pathways to admission”.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/07 ... erwhelmed/ (there is no other current source for the translation)

Cameron was so spot on with his plans for handling this whole situation and nobody took it on board. If you had to point to one situation that swung the overall referendum vote it was probably this.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:15 pm

I don't think there are any rules about cancelling Article 50. Some say we can just drop it, others think the EU would have to vote.

I'd imagine we could cancel leaving without too many problems.

Once we've left though, it would be bloody difficult to get back in as we would need every single EU member state to agree.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:54 pm

Moggy wrote:I don't think there are any rules about cancelling Article 50. Some say we can just drop it, others think the EU would have to vote.

I'd imagine we could cancel leaving without too many problems.

Once we've left though, it would be bloody difficult to get back in as we would need every single EU member state to agree.


There would be prices to pay for this as well. I vaguely remember this being touched on by the EU side.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:55 pm

KK wrote:
Welt am Sonntag via Breitbart wrote:Microsoft founder Bill Gates has warned that Africa’s population explosion will overwhelm Europe unless the continent makes it more difficult for migrants to reach its shores.

The American billionaire’s comments come as European leaders discuss what to do about the surging number of Africans arriving in Italy each week, with Rome calling for other European Union (EU) nations to open their ports to docking migrants so as to ease pressure on the Mediterranean nation.

In an interview with the German Welt am Sonntag newspaper, Gates said massive population growth in Africa will result in “enormous [migratory] pressure” on Europe unless countries increase overseas development aid payments.

Praising Germany having achieved its commitment to devote 0.7 per cent of GDP to foreign aid as “phenomenal”, the 61-year-old called on “other European nations to follow its example”.

But Gates also spoke of a dilemma caused by ‘the German attitude to refugees’, referring to Chancellor Angela Merkel’s decision to open Europe’s borders to illegal migrants arriving from the third world.

“On the one hand you want to demonstrate generosity and take in refugees, but the more generous you are, the more word gets around about this — which in turn motivates more people to leave Africa,” Gates told the Sunday newspaper.

“Germany cannot possibly take in the huge, massive number of people who are wanting to make their way to Europe.”

Because of this, Gates stressed that “Europe must make it more difficult for Africans to reach the continent via the current transit routes”.

Italy is demanding that other EU nations open their ports to migrants ferried from Libya as the country struggles to cope with having already received over 80,000 people this year.

Calling for African newcomers to be spread throughout Europe, the Mediterranean nation’s globalist centre-left government insisted that the EU migrant relocation programme — which is largely limited to people from Eritrea and Syria — should be expanded to include other nationalities, such as Nigerians.

“Without a swift collective action, we can only expect more tragedies at sea,” he declared, noting that around 2,000 migrants have lost their lives on the sea route from Libya to Italy this year.

The Italian diplomat repeated calls for an “urgent distribution system” for incoming migrants and asylum seekers, and “additional legal pathways to admission”.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/07 ... erwhelmed/ (there is no other current source for the translation)

Cameron was so spot on with his plans for handling this whole situation and nobody took it on board. If you had to point to one situation that swung the overall referendum vote it was probably this.


I do agree that this is a massive problem. It's the only benefit I see to us coming out of the EU, that's on the assumption that we are better protected from the problem out of the EU.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Errkal » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:02 pm

We are effected by it though, we don't take loads of assylum seekers and immigrants from affprica and they can't justxome here so stay or go it makes no difference on African immigration.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:06 pm

Squinty wrote:
Moggy wrote:I don't think there are any rules about cancelling Article 50. Some say we can just drop it, others think the EU would have to vote.

I'd imagine we could cancel leaving without too many problems.

Once we've left though, it would be bloody difficult to get back in as we would need every single EU member state to agree.


There would be prices to pay for this as well. I vaguely remember this being touched on by the EU side.


They might have said it, but I don't think there's anything in EU law or regulations that mean there would be penalties.

It's unlikely to happen but it'd probably end up in court if both sides wanted to push the issue.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:09 pm

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
KK wrote:
Welt am Sonntag via Breitbart wrote:Microsoft founder Bill Gates has warned that Africa’s population explosion will overwhelm Europe unless the continent makes it more difficult for migrants to reach its shores.

The American billionaire’s comments come as European leaders discuss what to do about the surging number of Africans arriving in Italy each week, with Rome calling for other European Union (EU) nations to open their ports to docking migrants so as to ease pressure on the Mediterranean nation.

In an interview with the German Welt am Sonntag newspaper, Gates said massive population growth in Africa will result in “enormous [migratory] pressure” on Europe unless countries increase overseas development aid payments.

Praising Germany having achieved its commitment to devote 0.7 per cent of GDP to foreign aid as “phenomenal”, the 61-year-old called on “other European nations to follow its example”.

But Gates also spoke of a dilemma caused by ‘the German attitude to refugees’, referring to Chancellor Angela Merkel’s decision to open Europe’s borders to illegal migrants arriving from the third world.

“On the one hand you want to demonstrate generosity and take in refugees, but the more generous you are, the more word gets around about this — which in turn motivates more people to leave Africa,” Gates told the Sunday newspaper.

“Germany cannot possibly take in the huge, massive number of people who are wanting to make their way to Europe.”

Because of this, Gates stressed that “Europe must make it more difficult for Africans to reach the continent via the current transit routes”.

Italy is demanding that other EU nations open their ports to migrants ferried from Libya as the country struggles to cope with having already received over 80,000 people this year.

Calling for African newcomers to be spread throughout Europe, the Mediterranean nation’s globalist centre-left government insisted that the EU migrant relocation programme — which is largely limited to people from Eritrea and Syria — should be expanded to include other nationalities, such as Nigerians.

“Without a swift collective action, we can only expect more tragedies at sea,” he declared, noting that around 2,000 migrants have lost their lives on the sea route from Libya to Italy this year.

The Italian diplomat repeated calls for an “urgent distribution system” for incoming migrants and asylum seekers, and “additional legal pathways to admission”.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/07 ... erwhelmed/ (there is no other current source for the translation)

Cameron was so spot on with his plans for handling this whole situation and nobody took it on board. If you had to point to one situation that swung the overall referendum vote it was probably this.


I do agree that this is a massive problem. It's the only benefit I see to us coming out of the EU, that's on the assumption that we are better protected from the problem out of the EU.


It has no effect on us unless we agree to take people.

We are not in Schengen and have controls over our borders. Freedom of movement only applies to EU nationals, not asylum seekers or fresh off the boat immigrants. And getting citizenship, of say Germany, would take a minimum of 5 years.

Who the hell is oing to risk their life getting to Germany, spend 5 years there, pass all of those citizenship tests and then immediately run off to Britain?

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Grumpy David
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PostRe: Brexit
by Grumpy David » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:18 pm

Low skilled economic migrants arriving by boat is an issue Australia has managed to reduce substantially in recent years, Italians and Greeks could do something similar to prevent a never ending inflow.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Knoyleo » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:24 pm

Grumpy David wrote:Low skilled economic migrants arriving by boat is an issue Australia has managed to reduce substantially in recent years, Italians and Greeks could do something similar to prevent a never ending inflow.

You mean lock them up, off shore, in inhumane and violent conditions that drive people to attempt suicide, and immolate themselves in protest?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... man-rights

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ight-nauru

pjbetman wrote:That's the stupidest thing ive ever read on here i think.
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PostRe: Brexit
by Grumpy David » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:25 pm

Knoyleo wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:Low skilled economic migrants arriving by boat is an issue Australia has managed to reduce substantially in recent years, Italians and Greeks could do something similar to prevent a never ending inflow.

You mean lock them up, off shore, in inhumane and violent conditions that drive people to attempt suicide?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... man-rights

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ight-nauru


Something similar = not exactly the same policy.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:29 pm

Moggy wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
KK wrote:
Welt am Sonntag via Breitbart wrote:Microsoft founder Bill Gates has warned that Africa’s population explosion will overwhelm Europe unless the continent makes it more difficult for migrants to reach its shores.

The American billionaire’s comments come as European leaders discuss what to do about the surging number of Africans arriving in Italy each week, with Rome calling for other European Union (EU) nations to open their ports to docking migrants so as to ease pressure on the Mediterranean nation.

In an interview with the German Welt am Sonntag newspaper, Gates said massive population growth in Africa will result in “enormous [migratory] pressure” on Europe unless countries increase overseas development aid payments.

Praising Germany having achieved its commitment to devote 0.7 per cent of GDP to foreign aid as “phenomenal”, the 61-year-old called on “other European nations to follow its example”.

But Gates also spoke of a dilemma caused by ‘the German attitude to refugees’, referring to Chancellor Angela Merkel’s decision to open Europe’s borders to illegal migrants arriving from the third world.

“On the one hand you want to demonstrate generosity and take in refugees, but the more generous you are, the more word gets around about this — which in turn motivates more people to leave Africa,” Gates told the Sunday newspaper.

“Germany cannot possibly take in the huge, massive number of people who are wanting to make their way to Europe.”

Because of this, Gates stressed that “Europe must make it more difficult for Africans to reach the continent via the current transit routes”.

Italy is demanding that other EU nations open their ports to migrants ferried from Libya as the country struggles to cope with having already received over 80,000 people this year.

Calling for African newcomers to be spread throughout Europe, the Mediterranean nation’s globalist centre-left government insisted that the EU migrant relocation programme — which is largely limited to people from Eritrea and Syria — should be expanded to include other nationalities, such as Nigerians.

“Without a swift collective action, we can only expect more tragedies at sea,” he declared, noting that around 2,000 migrants have lost their lives on the sea route from Libya to Italy this year.

The Italian diplomat repeated calls for an “urgent distribution system” for incoming migrants and asylum seekers, and “additional legal pathways to admission”.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/07 ... erwhelmed/ (there is no other current source for the translation)

Cameron was so spot on with his plans for handling this whole situation and nobody took it on board. If you had to point to one situation that swung the overall referendum vote it was probably this.


I do agree that this is a massive problem. It's the only benefit I see to us coming out of the EU, that's on the assumption that we are better protected from the problem out of the EU.


It has no effect on us unless we agree to take people.

We are not in Schengen and have controls over our borders. Freedom of movement only applies to EU nationals, not asylum seekers or fresh off the boat immigrants. And getting citizenship, of say Germany, would take a minimum of 5 years.

Who the hell is oing to risk their life getting to Germany, spend 5 years there, pass all of those citizenship tests and then immediately run off to Britain?


Well the more and more that come to Europe, the more that will try to get into the UK by illegal means. Currently though statistically it looks like they are happy to settle in Germany, France etc than try to risk illegally getting into the UK.

We do still though have a massive problem here with illegal immigration. The scale of the problem is not reported as i don't think the authorities truly have any idea how bad it is.

I read a report the other day that there are believed to be 35,000 illegal Vietnamese people who have got into the UK in the last 5 years alone. How they come to this number I have no idea but i can believe it's high due to what i see in my work. Northampton alone has had 14 Vietnamese 'children' reported as missing in the past 6 months. They were all illegal immigrants, found on lorries, they claimed to be under 18 so were put into social services care and within a few days to weeks they just vanish. Now image this repeated all over the country and it's a shocking statistic. Then think that is just one country that's the other side of the world. Now i don't for one minute think this is happening from every country. In reality it's only a small number of countries where it's citizens are risking their lives to try to get to europe but still the statistics are worrying.

Will we be safer from the problem in or out of the EU? i don't really know. But i believe France, Germany, Italy etc currently have a worse problem than we do.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Errkal » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:32 pm

If the problem isn't reported, and the authorities have no idea how bad or not bad the issue is, how can you trust a report saying how bad it is?

Isn't that the same as rumour and conjecture that is unreliable and unhelpful and based on the fear of immigration or perception of immigration not reality.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Return_of_the_STAR » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:47 pm

Errkal wrote:If the problem isn't reported, and the authorities have no idea how bad or not bad the issue is, how can you trust a report saying how bad it is?

Isn't that the same as rumour and conjecture that is unreliable and unhelpful and based on the fear of immigration or perception of immigration not reality.


This is what I was trying to say. How can we judge how many people are here illegally if we don't know they are here. All I can reference is my experience in seeing those who are caught or who have gone missing from the authorities.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:50 pm

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
KK wrote:
Welt am Sonntag via Breitbart wrote:Microsoft founder Bill Gates has warned that Africa’s population explosion will overwhelm Europe unless the continent makes it more difficult for migrants to reach its shores.

The American billionaire’s comments come as European leaders discuss what to do about the surging number of Africans arriving in Italy each week, with Rome calling for other European Union (EU) nations to open their ports to docking migrants so as to ease pressure on the Mediterranean nation.

In an interview with the German Welt am Sonntag newspaper, Gates said massive population growth in Africa will result in “enormous [migratory] pressure” on Europe unless countries increase overseas development aid payments.

Praising Germany having achieved its commitment to devote 0.7 per cent of GDP to foreign aid as “phenomenal”, the 61-year-old called on “other European nations to follow its example”.

But Gates also spoke of a dilemma caused by ‘the German attitude to refugees’, referring to Chancellor Angela Merkel’s decision to open Europe’s borders to illegal migrants arriving from the third world.

“On the one hand you want to demonstrate generosity and take in refugees, but the more generous you are, the more word gets around about this — which in turn motivates more people to leave Africa,” Gates told the Sunday newspaper.

“Germany cannot possibly take in the huge, massive number of people who are wanting to make their way to Europe.”

Because of this, Gates stressed that “Europe must make it more difficult for Africans to reach the continent via the current transit routes”.

Italy is demanding that other EU nations open their ports to migrants ferried from Libya as the country struggles to cope with having already received over 80,000 people this year.

Calling for African newcomers to be spread throughout Europe, the Mediterranean nation’s globalist centre-left government insisted that the EU migrant relocation programme — which is largely limited to people from Eritrea and Syria — should be expanded to include other nationalities, such as Nigerians.

“Without a swift collective action, we can only expect more tragedies at sea,” he declared, noting that around 2,000 migrants have lost their lives on the sea route from Libya to Italy this year.

The Italian diplomat repeated calls for an “urgent distribution system” for incoming migrants and asylum seekers, and “additional legal pathways to admission”.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/07 ... erwhelmed/ (there is no other current source for the translation)

Cameron was so spot on with his plans for handling this whole situation and nobody took it on board. If you had to point to one situation that swung the overall referendum vote it was probably this.


I do agree that this is a massive problem. It's the only benefit I see to us coming out of the EU, that's on the assumption that we are better protected from the problem out of the EU.


It has no effect on us unless we agree to take people.

We are not in Schengen and have controls over our borders. Freedom of movement only applies to EU nationals, not asylum seekers or fresh off the boat immigrants. And getting citizenship, of say Germany, would take a minimum of 5 years.

Who the hell is oing to risk their life getting to Germany, spend 5 years there, pass all of those citizenship tests and then immediately run off to Britain?


Well the more and more that come to Europe, the more that will try to get into the UK by illegal means. Currently though statistically it looks like they are happy to settle in Germany, France etc than try to risk illegally getting into the UK.

We do still though have a massive problem here with illegal immigration. The scale of the problem is not reported as i don't think the authorities truly have any idea how bad it is.

I read a report the other day that there are believed to be 35,000 illegal Vietnamese people who have got into the UK in the last 5 years alone. How they come to this number I have no idea but i can believe it's high due to what i see in my work. Northampton alone has had 14 Vietnamese 'children' reported as missing in the past 6 months. They were all illegal immigrants, found on lorries, they claimed to be under 18 so were put into social services care and within a few days to weeks they just vanish. Now image this repeated all over the country and it's a shocking statistic. Then think that is just one country that's the other side of the world. Now i don't for one minute think this is happening from every country. In reality it's only a small number of countries where it's citizens are risking their lives to try to get to europe but still the statistics are worrying.

Will we be safer from the problem in or out of the EU? i don't really know. But i believe France, Germany, Italy etc currently have a worse problem than we do.


France, Germany and Italy are part of Schengen. We are not.


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