Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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Photek
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PostRe: Brexit
by Photek » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:22 am

Erm, it reads right in my head but yeah EU might agree to a small extension but thats all.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:26 am

Photek wrote:Erm, it reads right in my head but yeah EU might agree to a small extension but thats all.


EU will only agree to a small extension if one at all.


That would read better.

I agree with you, the EU will not want to look unreasonable by refusing any extension, but they also will not want to dick about too much. They will want a deal of course and so it is also in their interests to work something out (the UK has far more to lose though!).

Having said that, the UK is doing an appalling job at diplomacy with the EU and the 27 nations that make up the EU and it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up just telling the UK to strawberry float off.

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Photek
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PostRe: Brexit
by Photek » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:46 am

Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:Erm, it reads right in my head but yeah EU might agree to a small extension but thats all.


EU will only agree to a small extension if one at all.


That would read better.

I agree with you, the EU will not want to look unreasonable by refusing any extension, but they also will not want to dick about too much. They will want a deal of course and so it is also in their interests to work something out (the UK has far more to lose though!).

Having said that, the UK is doing an appalling job at diplomacy with the EU and the 27 nations that make up the EU and it wouldn't surprise me if they ended up just telling the UK to strawberry float off.

So far EU is playing hardball, even more so than I would have ever imagined. They seem exasperated at the UK seemingly not understanding the rules and intents they set out months ago.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:54 am

I am not sure the EU are even bothering to play hardball. They are basically just saying "well these are the rules, this is what will happen".

It's the UK running around telling people that "we can have our cake and eat it!", "no deal is better than a bad deal", "Brexit means Brexit", "red, white and blue Brexit", "I need an election to give myself the strongest possible hand" and "we gotz r sovrenty back from da EU".

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Photek
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PostRe: Brexit
by Photek » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:18 pm

Moggy wrote:I am not sure the EU are even bothering to play hardball. They are basically just saying "well these are the rules, this is what will happen".

It's the UK running around telling people that "we can have our cake and eat it!", "no deal is better than a bad deal", "Brexit means Brexit", "red, white and blue Brexit", "I need an election to give myself the strongest possible hand" and "we gotz r sovrenty back from da EU".

Maybe, but Barnier has gotten a little bit more abrupt recently, probably because of being surprised at the crazy goings on. That election was a hammer blow to the negotiations, not for the EU, I can't imagine they didn't celebrate a little. The best deal is for the UK to pay into the single market they voted out of I presume? The telling thing is how nobody at all right now wants to be PM, that shows more than anything that things are grim.

If Corbyn ran on a second referendum he might have won, what an idiot.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:35 pm

I can't remember if someone said it in here, but I seen a post saying Corbyn is just biding his time and waiting for the Tory party to tear itself apart. Well, it looks like they are starting to fracture. May seemingly can't control her own team. It seems like there are divisions forming.

So is austerity over or what? Have they U turned on that because the treasury are strong arming them?

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:46 pm

Photek wrote:If Corbyn ran on a second referendum he might have won, what an idiot.


Corbyn wants out of the EU more than May does.

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Meep
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PostRe: Brexit
by Meep » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:25 pm

Corbyn in part of the problem. He is an ideologue who wants out of the single market, customs union and ECJ in order to pursue his fantasy of a social democratic paradise (which will actually end in us having to ask for another IMF bailout). The Tories want out of the same in order to pursue their fantasy of a free market paradise (well, paradise for the lucky few at least, hell for about 80% of the working age population).

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Rightey
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PostRe: Brexit
by Rightey » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:06 pm

Photek wrote: The deal means Japan will drop tariffs on many valuable European imports, including chocolate, pasta and some types of cheese.

In return for liberalisation of Japan’s highly protected dairy market, Europe has compromised by agreeing to lower tariffs on Japanese imported cars, although new rules will be phased in to help European carmakers deal with the change.

Services and an array of technical standards are also covered by the treaty, which negotiators say goes far further than old-style tariff-cutting agreements.


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/06/japan-and-eu-expected-to-sign-trade-deal-after-breakthrough-in-talks

Cheaper Japanese cars FTW![/quote]

Now I have to admit I don't know the stats but this seems like a pretty lop sided deal. Loads of people buy Japanese cars, but they're not really big into dairy over there. Maybe they're breaking even on the chocolate bars...

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Rocsteady
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PostRe: Brexit
by Rocsteady » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:56 pm

I think you'd have to read the details before coming to such a conclusion, it's highly unlikely a trading bloc as powerful as the EU will have agreed to a one-sided deal.

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Errkal
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PostRe: Brexit
by Errkal » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:59 pm

They will have to with us, they need us more so will have to give us everything we want!

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Grumpy David
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PostRe: Brexit
by Grumpy David » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:39 pm

Rightey wrote:
Photek wrote: The deal means Japan will drop tariffs on many valuable European imports, including chocolate, pasta and some types of cheese.

In return for liberalisation of Japan’s highly protected dairy market, Europe has compromised by agreeing to lower tariffs on Japanese imported cars, although new rules will be phased in to help European carmakers deal with the change.

Services and an array of technical standards are also covered by the treaty, which negotiators say goes far further than old-style tariff-cutting agreements.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/06/japan-and-eu-expected-to-sign-trade-deal-after-breakthrough-in-talks

Cheaper Japanese cars FTW!


Now I have to admit I don't know the stats but this seems like a pretty lop sided deal. Loads of people buy Japanese cars, but they're not really big into dairy over there. Maybe they're breaking even on the chocolate bars...


International free trade isn't a zero-sum game in which imports are losses to be avoided and exports are gains to be pursued.

We have free trade to obtain things more cheaply than we can produce them ourselves. The real benefits from trade are imports.

Mainstream economy theory is that you're better off having free trade than tit for tat i.e. If the EU says our food has 5% import tariff, we shouldn't be petty and copy them and apply 5% to their food coming into the UK, we should still offer 0%. It doesn't feel logical on an individual scale but it does on much larger scale.

Protectionism only protects the uncompetitive business, it harms the end consumer by reducing choice or making a cheaper product less price competitive than it otherwise ought to be by applying tariffs.

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Lex-Man
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lex-Man » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:48 pm

Grumpy David wrote:
Rightey wrote:
Photek wrote: The deal means Japan will drop tariffs on many valuable European imports, including chocolate, pasta and some types of cheese.

In return for liberalisation of Japan’s highly protected dairy market, Europe has compromised by agreeing to lower tariffs on Japanese imported cars, although new rules will be phased in to help European carmakers deal with the change.

Services and an array of technical standards are also covered by the treaty, which negotiators say goes far further than old-style tariff-cutting agreements.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/06/japan-and-eu-expected-to-sign-trade-deal-after-breakthrough-in-talks

Cheaper Japanese cars FTW!


Now I have to admit I don't know the stats but this seems like a pretty lop sided deal. Loads of people buy Japanese cars, but they're not really big into dairy over there. Maybe they're breaking even on the chocolate bars...


International free trade isn't a zero-sum game in which imports are losses to be avoided and exports are gains to be pursued.

We have free trade to obtain things more cheaply than we can produce them ourselves. The real benefits from trade are imports.

Mainstream economy theory is that you're better off having free trade than tit for tat i.e. If the EU says our food has 5% import tariff, we shouldn't be petty and copy them and apply 5% to their food coming into the UK, we should still offer 0%. It doesn't feel logical on an individual scale but it does on much larger scale.

Protectionism only protects the uncompetitive business, it harms the end consumer by reducing choice or making a cheaper product less price competitive than it otherwise ought to be by applying tariffs.


The problem with us copying the EU tariff policies is that they produce far more food than we do. They have the choice of not buying from the UK, the UK doesn't have the choice of not buying from the EU.

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Grumpy David
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PostRe: Brexit
by Grumpy David » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:03 pm

lex-man wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:
Rightey wrote:
Photek wrote: The deal means Japan will drop tariffs on many valuable European imports, including chocolate, pasta and some types of cheese.

In return for liberalisation of Japan’s highly protected dairy market, Europe has compromised by agreeing to lower tariffs on Japanese imported cars, although new rules will be phased in to help European carmakers deal with the change.

Services and an array of technical standards are also covered by the treaty, which negotiators say goes far further than old-style tariff-cutting agreements.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/06/japan-and-eu-expected-to-sign-trade-deal-after-breakthrough-in-talks

Cheaper Japanese cars FTW!


Now I have to admit I don't know the stats but this seems like a pretty lop sided deal. Loads of people buy Japanese cars, but they're not really big into dairy over there. Maybe they're breaking even on the chocolate bars...


International free trade isn't a zero-sum game in which imports are losses to be avoided and exports are gains to be pursued.

We have free trade to obtain things more cheaply than we can produce them ourselves. The real benefits from trade are imports.

Mainstream economy theory is that you're better off having free trade than tit for tat i.e. If the EU says our food has 5% import tariff, we shouldn't be petty and copy them and apply 5% to their food coming into the UK, we should still offer 0%. It doesn't feel logical on an individual scale but it does on much larger scale.

Protectionism only protects the uncompetitive business, it harms the end consumer by reducing choice or making a cheaper product less price competitive than it otherwise ought to be by applying tariffs.


The problem with us copying the EU tariff policies is that they produce far more food than we do. They have the choice of not buying from the UK, the UK doesn't have the choice of not buying from the EU.


Eh? I'm suggesting we shouldn't copy. If the EU wishes to be petty and apply WTO tarrifs, we should still allow the EU tariff free access to our market. We should allow every country in the world tariff free access even if not reciprocal. If we can get good quality food or other products at a cheaper price than we can produce ourselves, this benefits the UK consumer. We too have the choice of buying food or any product from non EU sources. That's the great part about trade. We're free to choose.

However free trade is a mutually beneficial arrangement, so the EU does have an incentive to come to an agreement of some kind. And it it's encouraging to see countries over the weekend coming out and saying they want a free trade deal with the UK ASAP.

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Lex-Man
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lex-Man » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:06 pm

Grumpy David wrote:
lex-man wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:
Rightey wrote:
Photek wrote: The deal means Japan will drop tariffs on many valuable European imports, including chocolate, pasta and some types of cheese.

In return for liberalisation of Japan’s highly protected dairy market, Europe has compromised by agreeing to lower tariffs on Japanese imported cars, although new rules will be phased in to help European carmakers deal with the change.

Services and an array of technical standards are also covered by the treaty, which negotiators say goes far further than old-style tariff-cutting agreements.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/06/japan-and-eu-expected-to-sign-trade-deal-after-breakthrough-in-talks

Cheaper Japanese cars FTW!


Now I have to admit I don't know the stats but this seems like a pretty lop sided deal. Loads of people buy Japanese cars, but they're not really big into dairy over there. Maybe they're breaking even on the chocolate bars...


International free trade isn't a zero-sum game in which imports are losses to be avoided and exports are gains to be pursued.

We have free trade to obtain things more cheaply than we can produce them ourselves. The real benefits from trade are imports.

Mainstream economy theory is that you're better off having free trade than tit for tat i.e. If the EU says our food has 5% import tariff, we shouldn't be petty and copy them and apply 5% to their food coming into the UK, we should still offer 0%. It doesn't feel logical on an individual scale but it does on much larger scale.

Protectionism only protects the uncompetitive business, it harms the end consumer by reducing choice or making a cheaper product less price competitive than it otherwise ought to be by applying tariffs.


The problem with us copying the EU tariff policies is that they produce far more food than we do. They have the choice of not buying from the UK, the UK doesn't have the choice of not buying from the EU.


Eh? I'm suggesting we shouldn't copy. If the EU wishes to be petty and apply WTO tarrifs, we should still allow the EU tariff free access to our market. We should allow every country in the world tariff free access even if not reciprocal. If we can get good quality food or other products at a cheaper price than we can produce ourselves, this benefits the UK consumer. We too have the choice of buying food or any product from non EU sources. That's the great part about trade. We're free to choose.

However free trade is a mutually beneficial arrangement, so the EU does have an incentive to come to an agreement of some kind. And it it's encouraging to see countries over the weekend coming out and saying they want a free trade deal with the UK ASAP.


Then every country in the world could apply tariffs against us and all their companies would be able to undercut ours as they would have larger markets which they could use to scale up their production and undercut our companies prices. It would mean that ever large company in the UK would have to leave or go bankrupt. So basically saying the UK should commit economic suicide. That's not a great idea.

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Rightey
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PostRe: Brexit
by Rightey » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:47 pm

Grumpy David wrote:Eh? I'm suggesting we shouldn't copy. If the EU wishes to be petty and apply WTO tarrifs, we should still allow the EU tariff free access to our market. We should allow every country in the world tariff free access even if not reciprocal. If we can get good quality food or other products at a cheaper price than we can produce ourselves, this benefits the UK consumer. We too have the choice of buying food or any product from non EU sources. That's the great part about trade. We're free to choose.

However free trade is a mutually beneficial arrangement, so the EU does have an incentive to come to an agreement of some kind. And it it's encouraging to see countries over the weekend coming out and saying they want a free trade deal with the UK ASAP.


I know it's not tit for tat, my original post was a bit of a joke, but there is a serious issue with what you're saying. You are looking at literally only half the equation, the consumer and corporation. You need to also keep the worker in mind.

Sure it will be great if a consumer can now buy a car for $1000 cheaper than he could have before, but it won't really matter much if that same consumer loses their job because the factory where they worked at shuts down.

I know you might say, well then the place he works at just needs to become more competitive, and most times companies do become more competitive but they do this by moving to a country that is cheaper to operate from and having lots of free trade agreements just makes this easier.

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KK
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PostRe: Brexit
by KK » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:58 am

Shoppers 'in the dark' about Brexit effect

UK shoppers are "completely in the dark" about the effect Brexit will have on their weekly shop, a former Sainsbury's boss has told BBC Panorama.

Justin King, who ran the supermarket for a decade, said the "last thing" any current supermarket boss would reveal was their intention to put up prices.

But he added it was "very clear" shoppers would face "higher prices, less choice and poorer quality".
The main supermarkets declined to speak to BBC Panorama.

Mr King, who ran Sainsbury's until 2014, said: "Brexit, almost in whatever version it is, will introduce barriers.

"That makes it less efficient which means all three of those benefits - prices, quality and choice - go backwards."

Food and farming combined are the UK's biggest manufacturing sector and the EU is involved all along the chain - from what grows in British fields to the labels in shops.

The EU also guarantees free trade across the continent and Mr King - who supported Remain - said this frictionless movement kept food prices down.

Mr King, who has said the weaker pound will push up prices, added that EU membership helped retailers find the best suppliers and markets throughout Europe.

He also said the EU had driven up standards and enabled the UK to get out-of-season vegetables all year round.

EU tariffs

But manufacturing boss and Vote Leave campaigner John Mills believes the EU keeps prices artificially high for the shopper.

He said: "Food prices inside the EU vary from food product to food product, but the average is something like 20% higher than they are in the rest of the world - so there is very substantial scope for food prices coming down if we switch sources of supply outside the EU."

Mr Mills, chairman of consumer goods firm JML, said cheaper prices may not mean lower standards.
What does Brexit mean for UK farmers?
Business leaders urge single market until Brexit deal

Food chiefs warn on post-Brexit tariffs
He said: "The reason why food prices are higher inside the EU is because they have got tariffs which keep the prices up.

"It's not anything to do with quality - it's due to the institutional arrangements with means the food prices are kept much higher to increase farmers' incomes."

'Scared of imports'

Some British farmers fear that a bad Brexit deal - which does not protect them - could drive them out of business.

John Davies, a livestock farmer from Powys in Wales, told Panorama: "I'm really scared of imports - produced to completely different standards [with] hormones, you know, feedlot beef, you know - we're based on green and pleasant land, high environmental standards. We really are proud of that."

Feedlots - places where cattle are fattened for slaughter - are common in the US, which is the world's largest beef producer.

It supplies one fifth of the beef eaten around the world.

Where do we buy our beef from?

But in the UK, less than 1% of the fresh and frozen beef bought last year came from the US, according to Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (AHDB).

Possibly the most controversial difference in livestock farming either side of the Atlantic is the American use of growth hormones, which is banned in the EU.

The UK is largely self-sufficient when it comes to beef - with home-grown British beef accounting for 76% of purchases last year.
Brexit could change that.

Mr Davies said: "Brexit could have a massive effect on our food-producing ability in this nation, that's a key strategic decision to be made."

David Trowbridge from the Iowa Cattlemen's Association says US beef is "very competitive"

The prime minister has already been driving for new deals in America and the UK's special relationship with the US could provide a source of cheap food.

David Trowbridge, president-elect of the Iowa Cattlemen's Association in the US, told BBC

Panorama: "We don't want to destroy an industry within another country, but you know... we are very competitive... It's up to your consumers on what they want to pay for the product."

In the UK, we spend roughly 8% of our income on food, according to the World Economic Forum.

Americans spend 6% - less than any other country in the world - and that is partly down to large-scale, cheap and efficient farming.

'Once in a lifetime'

Other farmers that Panorama spoke to welcomed Brexit.

Jacob Anthony, a 24-year-old fifth generation beef and sheep farmer who runs a 700-acre farm in Bridgend, Wales, voted to leave the EU.

"I'm a young farmer and I'm looking to the future," he said. "I think a lot of us in the industry were not happy with the way the sector was going and I thought it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for realistic change."

Farmer Jacob Anthony hopes that leaving the EU will open up export opportunities

Mr Anthony said leaving the EU would give British farmers a chance to strike new trade deals and push into new emerging markets.

Last year, 13% of UK-produced beef was exported, according to the AHDB, whose spokesman said it was largely the bits British shoppers did not want.

'Get on the agenda'

Conservative MP James Cleverly insists that the UK doesn't "have to just roll over" in Brexit negotiations.

He said: "We are a highly desirable market. That actually gives us some strength in the negotiations."

For Mr Mills, it is the establishment who "doesn't really like Brexit".

"And they are throwing up difficulties all over the place, which I don't think are going to materialise to anything like the extent to which they claim," he said.

Ex-Sainsbury's boss Mr King is concerned, however, that "there has been, in my estimation, almost no conversation about the potential impact of Brexit on the food supply chain by definition".

He said with less than two years to go until Brexit, "food needs to get on the agenda pretty soon".

The government has said little about plans for food and farming after Brexit, and the new UK
Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) secretary Michael Gove declined to speak to BBC Panorama.

Defra said: "We will not in any way dilute high quality environmental standards, we will make sure our environment and animal welfare are protected."

Watch BBC Panorama - Britain's Food & Farming: The Brexit Effect on Monday 10th July on BBC1 at 20:30 BST and afterwards on BBC iPlayer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40530700

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:52 am

Things are looking pretty good.

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:23 am

Once again proof that farmers were idiots voting against their own interests.

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Cuttooth
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PostRe: Brexit
by Cuttooth » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:43 pm

The debacle over Eurotom seems like it might be the point where Brexit starts to fall apart.


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