Brexit

jawafour wrote:

Errkal wrote:..how can these morons be so so dedicated to something that has been proven gooseberry fool...

I think it highly unlikely that anyone who holds a different view to your own will join this debate if they are referred to as "morons". Nothing personal, Errkal, but please could you avoid using such phrases so that folk feel comfortable enough to share their viewpoint here? Thanks.

It depends who we are talking about.

The main Brexit supporters on here are Captain Red Dog, Grumpy David, Cal (RIP in peace) and Lucien. I wouldn’t describe any of those as morons, they are intelligent enough people. Their thought process on Brexit is beyond my understanding though, I just don’t get it.

I think Errkal was talking about the sort of Brexit supporters that you see on social media. The type that can barely string a sentence together (apologies to Errkal ) and who are unable to respond with anything other than racism, threats or bizarre untruths that they saw on a Marilyn Monroe image meme. Those people are absolutely morons.

I can string a sentence together, mostly.

But yeah that is basically what I meant, it's the people that would have everyone living in burned out huts eating moss and still say it was a worthwhile and right thing to do that are morons.

Errkal wrote:Thats what I dont understand, all those things have been proved over and over to be gooseberry fool, how can these morons be so so dedicated to something that has been proven gooseberry fool and that will hurt us so so much to be willing to loose their job and their families jobs.

Jingoism and crippling self image problems.

Also don't prsume the older generation(s) are going to suffer anywhere near as much s. They'll still demand benefits/pensions are paid/escalated regardless of the economic gooseberry fool they've thrown the country in

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And while I agree with Jawafour that it is not helpful to call people names, let’s not forget that we are talking about people that voted, campaigned and still support an action that will strip most of us of our European citizenship, will leave us in an economic disaster and will cause incredible hardship for those that dare to fall in love with people from other European countries.

Calling people morons is harsh, but being called it doesn’t take away your rights, your economic stability or your loved ones.

jawafour wrote:I suspect that some folk can see positive and negative aspects for both positions.

And yet well over a year after the vote and none of them seem to be able to tell us many positives.

People are worried and scared for their futures. Their right to work abroad is being taken away. Hate crimes are on the rise. The door is potentially being shut on their loved ones. Our economy looks like it will contract horribly. And the people that did it are unable to tell us any real positives.

It's not surprising that people get angry.

jawafour wrote:I think we have to be careful in how we give a name to a group of people. Sure, this thread isn't a legal document where we have to get everything just so and - hey! - we all vent now and again, and get frustrated when others don't share our view.

Even though I am a very infrequent visitor to this thread, I did notice that some folk who wished the UK to stay as a formal member of Europe desired that people who hold different views would debate them here. They are unlikely to if they are branded in a derogatory way. Personally, I feel that there are degrees of difference; not just a binary position. Sure, that was the case in the actual EU membership vote, but I suspect that some folk can see positive and negative aspects for both positions.

This isn't which football team is best, or what die hard is best.

It's a group of people that willing choose to cause significant and long term economic and social harm to the country (at best which they'll be part of and at worst they'll be insulated from as others suffer) against all rational arguements.

When challenged the best they come out with us meaningkess platitudes or outright falsehoods they swallowed hook line and sinker despite the massive information campaign (Moggys line about being conned and convincing people they've been conned above is s good one)

Edit - And it's still happening now. We're getting strawberry floated I'm negioatons and all the obvious fallacies and chest beating from Leave is shown to be the vacuous nonsense it obviously was. And some Leavers are cheeing it on. People aren't angry about a vote a year ago. They're angry about an act of harm they warned about but I'd currently being inflicted on them - and will be inflicted for many years to come.

Saying 'don't call a spade a spade' ist going to get much traction I expect

And it'll be long term. This car crash is going to last years and each new bump on the road triggers/refreshes the 'you caused this, your pollock' attitude from most(?)is not going to stop because Leavers don't like the warned consequence of thief actions being attributed to them

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Hexx wrote:...We're getting strawberry floated I'm negioatons...

Are we, Hexx? To be honest, I've read or heard few facts about the leave negotiations nor the trade negotiations. Sure, I've read rumours in the news... but, to the best of my knowledge, nothing has been agreed yet and I don't think the government has shared any details.

I absolutely don't doubt that any agreement will be hard-fought by both parties, and neither will probably be entirely happy. But I'm hesitant to agree with the idea that the UK is already being strawberry-floated.

jawafour wrote:I could imagine that this could be a positive aspect. Wouldn't most folk want their country's government to be able to define and apply laws? Sure, EU laws were voted on by the member states, but that's not really the same as a country managing its own laws.

What I meant was it was bollocks that we couldn't make our own laws anyway. Parliament can already define and apply laws.

I believe the government wants to create trade deals with as many countries as possible; ideally with European member state countries as well as countries in the test of the world (USA, China, Australia, Canada). Now the Euro countries deal will obviously be problematic because of the break but, with the right relationships build lt, open trading with, say, USA and China could be a positive thing, and something the government was previously unable to do outside of general Europe-led arrangements.

We might be able to, but it is going to be a hell of a risk. Most of our trading is with Europe, burning that bridge to chase after America is insane. Especially when the EU is signing up to trade deals with Canada, Japan etc.

All the signs point to us being worse off, for a long time. Any trade deals with the USA or China are likely to have very negative impacts on the UK (the example of the poor quality chlorinated chicken for example).

We are already in a massively beneficial free trade deal with all of our biggest trading partners. Throwing that away to import cheap American meat doesn't strike me as much of a positive.

And the fact that we are threating to "have our cake and eat it", "no deal is better than a bad deal" and "we will walk away without paying our dues" isn't filling me with confidence and I doubt it is filling the other countries of the world with a desire to do business with us.

Don't get me wrong - I, too, am very apprehensive about some of the changes on the horizon but I am someone who is very much in the middle ground on this; the change is happening and so I want to seek out any positives that can be found.

You are a positive person and that's great. I usually am pretty positive about the future as well. On this though, I just don't see anything good on the horizon.

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jawafour wrote:The UK's parliament can define and apply laws, but only as long as they're in accordance with EU law; or for something which EU law does not cover. Now I'm not suggesting that the laws created by the EU are a major hinderance, but I can understand the idea that the preferable position would be for a country to create and apply rules of its own choosing.

That’s the thing though, the EU is not an organisation that imposes law on us. We are an equal part of the EU. We would have had our say in any EU law/regulation that is implemented. For anything major we would also have a veto over.

I get the idea that it’s better to create your own law, but where do you draw the line with that? Should Somerset be able to create it’s own laws rather than listen to the rest of the UK? Should a little village? We joined up to the European project, every single part of that and every single thing that has come from it has been voted on by elected representatives from this country.

Even if you (not you personally) dislike some of those laws, is it really worth economic instability? The loss of the right to work abroad? The uncertainty that EU migrants feel in the UK at the moment? I can’t think of any EU laws/regulations that harm us in any way and certainly not any that are worth the major loss in our rights and abilities.

The world is not what it was 50 year or more ago. There are all sorts of international rules, regulations and laws that countries have to follow. The idea that being out of the EU will mean Britain can do whatever it likes is naïve at best.

I feel quite positive about cutting deals with the likes of America, China, Australia and Canada... and I think they would feel the same. I suspect that they won't look upon a trade deal as being a purely business agreement; they will be keen to gain the political benefit, too. Trump is talking of creating a deal and, whilst I am not a huge fan of the guy, I feel a trade agreement with the USA would be excellent for the UK. As with any deal the UK makes - with any country - there will be a few drawbacks, but this is all part of the agreement process. Such deals could also be useful in any future negotiations with Euro countries; if the UK is spending money on things that they could provide then they will be eager to get a slice of that pie.

Trump talks about a lot of things, he very rarely delivers….

I am glad you feel positive about it. I don’t. I do not see any potential deals with the USA, Australia and China (I am ignoring Canada as we would have had that through the EU) making up for the tariffs and the disruption to trade with our biggest trading partners.

jawafour wrote:

Hexx wrote:...We're getting strawberry floated I'm negioatons...

Are we, Hexx? To be honest, I've read or heard few facts about the leave negotiations nor the trade negotiations. Sure, I've read rumours in the news... but, to the best of my knowledge, nothing has beengreed yet and I don't think the government has shared any details.

We were comprehensively rebuked on our demand for concurrent talks putting any time table back years (something Leave were warned about)

You may also have heard the laughing and anger across the continent at our piss poor offer on EU Nationals and the response.

You may also have seen Davis say definitively that certain agencies would not be leaving London as we could keep them as a negotiation deal (cus Remainers laughing at his piss poor attempt to look "tought" and hope it would work out). They just progressed passed the bidding stage for new locations.

You could see the pride in their eyes as we left the Fishing Policy striking out on our on free from the opprension of others...only for Europe to collectively shrug and go "So what? That's been superseded? You've changed nothing?"

And so on.

You don't have to wait to see a final deal to see we're getting our arse kicked left right and center - partly because the government has done a piss poor job of defining what we want (See: Hammond, Johnson, Fox, Davis etc all briefing, counter-brie fling, leaking and contradicting each other)

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Everything you just said is non-sense though. Nothing has changed, or been agreed yet, because the treaty we made a song and dance about "taking back control" over doesn't apply anymore.

Also can't believe I forgot - but did you miss the clusterfuck over Euratom?

Or when the German car makers went "u wot mate?" to the certainity they'd force a trade deal?

So yeah. We've been strawberry floated at every stage of negotiation, and nothing suggest that's gonna change at any point

jawafour wrote: when facts are at a premium.

You only think they're at a premium as you're ignoring so many. None of what I've posted is heresay or rumour In fact the only thing in the last few posts that is heresay, is your positive "isn't this fishing deal [that hasn't started discussion yet] so great"

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I think this photo shows how well negotiations are going.

The EU are prepared and have their homework.

Our guy "as a matter of pride" doesn't even bring a notepad with him.

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jawafour wrote:

Moggy wrote:...That’s the thing though, the EU is not an organisation that imposes law on us. We are an equal part of the EU. We would have had our say in any EU law/regulation that is implemented. For anything major we would also have a veto over.

I get the idea that it’s better to create your own law, but where do you draw the line with that? Should Somerset be able to create it’s own laws rather than listen to the rest of the UK? Should a little village?...

Yeah, the UK does have a say, Moggy, but my preference would be for an elected goverment to define UK law rather than through a European agreement. I'd also suggest that the veto possibility is minimal:

eu-facts.org wrote:The Lisbon Treaty, which came into force in 2009, saw the most recent phase of integration, and saw the introduction of qualified majority voting in over 30 policy areas, effectively removing members veto powers in the majority of policy areas.

Source: http://www.eu-facts.org.uk/arguments-by ... w-eu-laws/

I don't disagree with you on the "devolve to smaller areas" aspect - although I guess the logical extent of the argument leads to the question of why not join up into a bigger area?

But UK law is UK law. We can make and implement a wide variety of laws on all sorts of issues.

Some of which we devolved to the EU. But we are part of the EU. We vote on those laws. These are not things that are imposed on us, we are part of it!

Big major decision we have a veto on. Smaller decision and regulations we might not, but how many of those are negative towards us?

And is the ability to avoid any potential bad laws that might happen in the future worth going through the hardship of economic chaos? Is it worth losing status in the world? Is it worth losing our ability to live and work abroad? Is it worth taking that away from our children/nephews/nieces?

Moggy wrote:

jawafour wrote:

Moggy wrote:...That’s the thing though, the EU is not an organisation that imposes law on us. We are an equal part of the EU. We would have had our say in any EU law/regulation that is implemented. For anything major we would also have a veto over.

I get the idea that it’s better to create your own law, but where do you draw the line with that? Should Somerset be able to create it’s own laws rather than listen to the rest of the UK? Should a little village?...

Yeah, the UK does have a say, Moggy, but my preference would be for an elected goverment to define UK law rather than through a European agreement. I'd also suggest that the veto possibility is minimal:

eu-facts.org wrote:The Lisbon Treaty, which came into force in 2009, saw the most recent phase of integration, and saw the introduction of qualified majority voting in over 30 policy areas, effectively removing members veto powers in the majority of policy areas.

Source: http://www.eu-facts.org.uk/arguments-by ... w-eu-laws/

I don't disagree with you on the "devolve to smaller areas" aspect - although I guess the logical extent of the argument leads to the question of why not join up into a bigger area?

But UK law is UK law. We can make and implement a wide variety of laws on all sorts of issues.

Some of which we devolved to the EU. But we are part of the EU. We vote on those laws. These are not things that are imposed on us, we are part of it!

Big major decision we have a veto on. Smaller decision and regulations we might not, but how many of those are negative towards us?

And is the ability to avoid any potential bad laws that might happen in the future worth going through the hardship of economic chaos? Is it worth losing status in the world? Is it worth losing our ability to live and work abroad? Is it worth taking that away from our children/nephews/nieces?

strawberry float no! That's why people who voted for Brexit are fffffffffffffffffffff.