Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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Karl
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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:56 pm

Lucien wrote:
Karl wrote:Checking our national government - which is only ever going to get more frighteningly authoritarian - with an essentially centrist one?

You said last night you were for authoritarian governance.

:lol: Was this supposed to be witty? Good stuff.

No, Lucien, I'm not for authoritarianism in the sense of oppressive laws and people being told what to do; personal liberties and human rights are probably the top of my priority list politically. I've voted Lib Dem many times, alongside the Greens and Labour (and once even Plaid Cymru, because they leant a little lefter than Labour at the time!).

I don't like your ideal of local direct democracy because the typical voter is grossly ignorant. I prefer systems that abstract democracy into a form where typical people can vote for governments that have an agreeable general vision and kick out governments that misrepresent them, but in which the details of legislation are left to smart people that are actually capable of formulating them. And sure, in the far future I think we might hit a stage where an AI that takes occasional opinion polls would be better than a Prime Minister. Neither of those views are incompatible with being a forward-thinking, liberal person (even though I assume you think are they, they're not).

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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:58 pm

And thanks so much for your in-depth reply to my post.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:27 pm

Lucien wrote:
Karl wrote:I would happily scrap democracy if a better system came along (like letting a benevolent, neutral AI decide everything).

We could call it CAESAR and hope it never needs replaced. Ok, that there was a light-hearted joke. I wasn't joking before.

Nice out of context quote.

Recognising and mitigating the limitations of democracy and speculating that there might one day (probably on a science-fiction timescale) be a better solution to the problem government doesn't mean I want to oppress people or whatever other sanctimonious nonsense you're trying to frame me with.

Like all Leavers you are dodging the questions I posed because you don't want to admit you don't have any real answers.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Glowy69 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:29 pm

Karl wrote:
Lucien wrote:
Karl wrote:I would happily scrap democracy if a better system came along (like letting a benevolent, neutral AI decide everything).

We could call it CAESAR and hope it never needs replaced. Ok, that there was a light-hearted joke. I wasn't joking before.

Nice out of context quote.

Recognising and mitigating the limitations of democracy and speculating that there might one day (probably on a science-fiction timescale) be a better solution to the problem government doesn't mean I want to oppress people or whatever other sanctimonious nonsense you're trying to frame me with.

Like all Leavers you are dodging the questions I posed because you don't want to admit you don't have any real answers.


Don't be so silly. Im sure it won't be that bad. Im sure of it

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Meep
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PostRe: Brexit
by Meep » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:01 pm

The problem democracy has, especially the kind of direct democracy we have in referendums is that most voters are spectacularly ignorant about even basic political facts. This is not because they are stupid, it's actually the opposite reason. Being ignorant about politics is actually rational because the odds of your vote deciding an outcome are vanishingly small. Bothering to inform yourself about political issues is nearly always a complete waste of time and effort. The list of things that would be more beneficial for you to learn than politics is endless; so spending time learning about politics is therefore irrational behaviour. The problem with this is, while as an individual being ignorant about politics is rational, it becomes problematic if everyone does the same thing.

If I were designing a system of government I probably wouldn't use democracy at all. If I wanted to make it representative I'd simply draw a lottery of suitable citizens and select a jury group of 500 people at random every five years and get them to choose a government (no political parties, just lots of candidates from the civil service, military and private enterprise applying to run for different ministries), then have them approve or reject any policies the government they created brought forward. That way everyone on the jury at least would be very motivated to educate and inform themselves about the issues.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:03 pm

There are only really two important quotes in the discussion with Lucien.

Lucien wrote:On what basis do you want to override democracy then?


Lucien wrote:I don't want a second referendum. My basis for that is I would not support having any referendum that results in reducing a person's representation going forward.


Just keep that in mind when he’s accusing others of acting against democracy or of wanting an authoritarian government.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:26 pm

Lucien wrote:
Moggy wrote:There are only really two important quotes in the discussion with Lucien.

Lucien wrote:On what basis do you want to override democracy then?


Lucien wrote:I don't want a second referendum. My basis for that is I would not support having any referendum that results in reducing a person's representation going forward.


Just keep that in mind when he’s accusing others of acting against democracy or of wanting an authoritarian government.


I asked someone's basis for overriding it. Didn't accuse them of being wrong for wanting to. Don't worry about the first part of your quote it's very unlikely you and I will ever discuss this topic.


You asked it of me, which makes the second part of that post incorrect.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:45 pm

Lucien wrote:I didn't ask you, I asked lex-man.


That’s true, but the question you asked him was based on him agreeing with something I said.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:45 pm

Lucien wrote:You're reacting like I attacked you. I said you were fine with authoritarian governance yesterday because you said that yesterday. Today you think the Tories are too authoritarian. I'm not attacking you, but pointing the fact out to you for your consideration.

And I'm pointing out to you that:
  • You're wrong: there's nothing inherently authoritarian in my views, be it representative democracy or exploring alternatives or extensions to democracy that aren't oppressive
  • Your point is fatuous: you seem to think it has some deeper significance within this discussion, but it doesn't
  • You're evading the questions asked of you: you are droning on about this nonsensical tangent to avoid discussing Brexit, because you know you can't answer the arguments that have been made

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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:04 pm

Lucien wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:So what views don't they align?

And before you even think of using the word "Immigration" let me just stop you right there.

The UK has always had complete control of immigration from outside of the EU, nothing will change there regardless of our position in or out of the EU. If anything, outside of the EU the UK will have to relax immigration rules for people from outside of the EU as it's almost certainly going to be a condition of any trade deal with countries like India and China. India has long wanted to make it easier for its citizens to come to the UK and trade negotiations are the perfect place for that.

When it comes to immigration from within the EU, the UK (And indeed all EU member states) do have individual powers to put controls on this, it's just that successive governments of the last 30 years have made a conscious decision not to use those powers, most likely because EU immigration is a convenient boogeyman to point at for government failings/ineptitude.

As for Freedom of Movement? It still seems to genuinely shock people to learn that this never actually applied to the UK. The UK is not, and never has been, part of the Schengen Area. Anyone coming into the UK from the EU has to go through passport/border control the same as anyone else.


I'm for immigration, but not uncontrolled immigration. I want people from any country to have an equal chance to come here, rather than our current policy which favours EU nationals. If the government wants uncontrolled immigration from other areas I'll oppose that too.

You say at the end freedom of movement doesn't apply to the UK. It's an EU directive that does apply to us so I've no idea why you think it wouldn't? It seems to me you're confusing freedom of movement with having border control checks.

Going back to this as I never actually got an answer. You were shown to be factually incorrect with your argument on immigration and it was the only thing you addressed.

So I once again ask, on what views do the EU and yourself not actually align? And are those differences worth the price of leaving the EU? (Making the country worse off, damage to the economy, brain drain, businesses leaving the UK, losing the financial sector of London, losing presence/influence on the world stage, etc)

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PostRe: Brexit
by DML » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:13 pm

Isn't that silence telling though?

I'd happily talk about my views on Brexit with anyone who challenged me because I am confident in my views.

I'll never understand anyone who actively wants a big hit to the economy to get anything else, I'm sorry...that's batshit stupid. The economy drives everything.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:26 pm

Lucien wrote:There's no deeper significance to it. You said you don't like the authoritarian Tories and also said you'd scrap democracy. That's it.

A fatuous, almost childlike twisting of arguments made about two completely separate subjects into a misrepresentative statement that you present to advance your bizarre view of me as some kind of fascist while dodging the discussion at hand. I can't believe we've spent a whole page discussing an aside in which I postulated that there might be science fiction solutions to government - which I obviously wouldn't implement if they were authoritarian or oppressive - with the goal of demonstrating that I'm, what, a tyrant? It's ridiculous but you keep coming back to it because you have nothing else. No arguments, no reasoning, nothing to say for yourself.

Lucien wrote:Ask yourself what good it would do me to answer everything.

Maybe you'd realise that all your arguments come down to "but my sovereignty :cry: " with complete ignorance and almost offensive dismissal of the practical consequences of your point of view. You're unwilling to discuss human rights, standards of living, the economy, employment, foreign policy, international collaboration, our future trade deals, the rise of racism, real authoritarianism on the rise right now -- because when you went to the ballot box and cast your vote you decided that you were above those petty concerns. The glorious moral principle is more important to you than the real misery - yes, misery - your vote will cause to actual human beings you share this country with.

That's why I want you to justify yourself. No, you're right, you don't have to, you're allowed to post whatever you want, but I'm also allowed to keep badgering you for a response that I think is important.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Denster » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:39 pm

These last few pages!

:lol:

10, Zartan, <];^D
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Karl
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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:45 pm

Denster wrote:These last few pages!

:lol:


I actually don't find it very funny. My partner is scared shitless she will deported just as she's beginning to make a life here. I'm likely to lose my job when we actually leave and the last of the EU science funding dries up. I'm trying to get some European languages up to scratch because I have no idea when or if those hammers will fall or where we'll be able to go when it does.

It's all well and good voting on 'principles' like Lucien, or sitting on the fence and laughing about it all like you, when you have no skin in the game.

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PostRe: Brexit
by suzzopher » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:57 pm

We're the same Karl, strawberry floating terrified what will happen to my wife. Our kids are registered in Sweden but they have British passports at the moment, so if she is kicked out the kids would have to stay. This whole thing is strawberry floating ridiculous and should never been up for a public vote, there are too many lives at risk for such madness.

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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:14 pm

OK, I am a hypocrite (or a fascist or whatever you're trying to label me) because I think in a thousand years we might update democracy with a better system but don't want to be oppressed by the Tories now.

I am also really mean and unreasonable for pointing out that real people are suffering because of a decision you helped make.

You won, well done.

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Karl
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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:15 pm

suzzopher wrote:We're the same Karl, strawberry floating terrified what will happen to my wife. Our kids are registered in Sweden but they have British passports at the moment, so if she is kicked out the kids would have to stay. This whole thing is strawberry floating ridiculous and should never been up for a public vote, there are too many lives at risk for such madness.

I am really sorry you have to go through that mate, with children in the mix as well. I sympathise, I can't imagine how much more livid I'd be if it were potentially messing with my kids' lives. :(

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PostRe: Brexit
by DML » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:21 pm

Karl wrote:
Denster wrote:These last few pages!

:lol:


I actually don't find it very funny. My partner is scared shitless she will deported just as she's beginning to make a life here. I'm likely to lose my job when we actually leave and the last of the EU science funding dries up. I'm trying to get some European languages up to scratch because I have no idea when or if those hammers will fall or where we'll be able to go when it does.

It's all well and good voting on 'principles' like Lucien, or sitting on the fence and laughing about it all like you, when you have no skin in the game.


strawberry floating amen.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit
by Squinty » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:33 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFceZ0hAAds&sns=em

:dread: :lol:

This song is so gooseberry fool it's amazing.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:38 pm

Squinty wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFceZ0hAAds&sns=em

:dread: :lol:

This song is so gooseberry fool it's amazing.


That’s one of the younger Brexit voters.


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