Brexit

It does matter.

jawafour wrote:It’s difficult to call, Moggy... there are some hard-hitting, life-affecting issues at hand and so I can totally understand whilst folk get so passionate about it. Being a single bloke, I may be a little unaware of the fears that some people have about partners and family members although I try to demonstrate empathy. For my part, I certainly wouldn’t want to see anything happen that puts marriage and family relationships at risk. I am not knowledgable on this particular aspect; has the government suggested that such relationships could be impacted? I had thought that any existing marriages and families would not be affected by a break from the EU. Is the - quite understandable - fear arising from the thought that there may be changes?

Errkal wrote:Yes and also got called out on not saying anything or giving an actual opinion it was wishywashy lets all hold hands and it will be ok nonsense.

People are pissed off so someone being blarzy about the whole thing just gets their back up, there are people here who could quite literally lose they lives to this so someone going "yeah but it'll be fine though" is only going to annoy them.

Errkal, when you say I was “called out” I think you actually mean I was verbally abused for not demonstrating an opinion that matched the view of someone else. It is going to be hard to hold a discussion with you on this topic when you imply that I am “fine with people literally losing their lives”.

I'll agree it went too far against you and the way it was handled was wrong, however the issue people had and I had was that you literally had no opinion, I dont want to dwell on it as there is no point, but the issue was and is that you sat on the fence with no leaning either way basically saying "some people think that, some people think this, how know what is right" and at point said "I think we should leave, or stay, or whatever".

EDIT: also I'm not suggesting you are fine with people losing their lives, I'm not sure what you do or dont stand for in this, however there are leave voters who are fine with that and they should be ashamed.

jawafour wrote:It’s difficult to call, Moggy... there are some hard-hitting, life-affecting issues at hand and so I can totally understand whilst folk get so passionate about it. Being a single bloke, I may be a little unaware of the fears that some people have about partners and family members although I try to demonstrate empathy. For my part, I certainly wouldn’t want to see anything happen that puts marriage and family relationships at risk. I am not knowledgable on this particular aspect; has the government suggested that such relationships could be impacted? I had thought that any existing marriages and families would not be affected by a break from the EU. Is the - quite understandable - fear arising from the thought that there may be changes?

Marriages will probably be fine, but not everybody is married. The government have suggested that EU nationals can stay, but there’s nothing concrete. Imagine how scary it would be if there was even a chance of a loved one being deported just because of a referendum.

Stick to Nintendo threads, Jawa.

Lucien wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Lucien wrote:

Pancake wrote:In my opinion, one of the defining characteristics of this forum is that no one will ever change their opinion on anything under any circumstances, logic and reason be damned. We're all a bunch of stubborn arseholes.

I mean that lovingly.

That doesn't really matter. I go to real life debates and we might not agree, but we aren't ever anything close to being dicks. Funnily enough one was about Brexit; that actually inspired me to try this thread again (I know, right?). Seems funny now.

Can you see that you’ve been a dick in this thread at all?

I’ll freely admit when anger, frustration and other emotions take over that I can act a dick. Sometimes I’ll do it just to be annoying.

But it’s not alone way and it’s incredible that you seem unable to grasp why you wind other people up.

There may have been the odd occasion where I was, maybe ages ago too I don't remember; but 99.9% of the time I want to know people's ideas, am happy to disagree and have a nice chat. What I will do is respond in kind: if someone is a dick to me I'll be one back. That's completely different. With DML this last week I've chatted, Taf was a dick to me so I was a dick back. You'll never see me be a dick to jawafour, because he's polite.

I appreciate your honesty btw.

You should be a dick to Jawa, he’s too polite to do it back and so you automatically win.

Maybe you don’t mean it that way or there’s something about your post style that winds people up, but I can assure you the dickishness isn’t all one way. I’m not trying to insult you, we’re all dicks sometimes, but you’re as bad as most.

You’re not as bad as DML though, he got a show with Richard Osman and now he’s Billy Big Bollocks Dickface, with added dickness.

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jawafour wrote:It’s difficult to call, Moggy... there are some hard-hitting, life-affecting issues at hand and so I can totally understand whilst folk get so passionate about it. Being a single bloke, I may be a little unaware of the fears that some people have about partners and family members although I try to demonstrate empathy. For my part, I certainly wouldn’t want to see anything happen that puts marriage and family relationships at risk. I am not knowledgable on this particular aspect; has the government suggested that such relationships could be impacted? I had thought that any existing marriages and families would not be affected by a break from the EU. Is the - quite understandable - fear arising from the thought that there may be changes?

For what it's worth, there have been stories in the news recently about the Home Office stockpiling deportation letters aimed at EU citizens, as well as making it difficult to apply for residency by adding bureaucracy and denying requests based on loopholes. It certainly seems to me like deportation is a legitimate concern for anyone who is (or is connected to) an EU citizen.

Marriage - or even being born in the country - hasn't been enough to secure residency in some stories I've seen.

jawafour wrote:

Errkal wrote:I'll agree it went too far against you and the way it was handled was wrong, however the issue people had and I had was that you literally had no opinion, I dont want to dwell on it as there is no point, but the issue was and is that you sat on the fence with no leaning either way basically saying "some people think that, some people think this, how know what is right" and at point said "I think we should leave, or stay, or whatever".

EDIT: also I'm not suggesting you are fine with people losing their lives, I'm not sure what you do or dont stand for in this, however there are leave voters who are fine with that and they should be ashamed.

I feel that a key aspect of the problems in this thread is that too many folk only want a binary response whilst, in most cases, people hold views that vary to a large degree. The only binary thing - the actual Brexit vote - is over and we now have to hold discussions where people have variable views on a range of topics. Sure, I am in favour of the UK creating and being responsible for its own laws; but that doesn’t mean I want to see marriages and families broken up. I am also in favour of there being borders where people have to show a passport to move across; but that doesn’t mean I want to stop people from working in different countries. Personally, in my mind I will not put someone into a particular “box” and disregard all of their viewpoints because of how they voted.

EDIT: Sorry re read your post, I agree with your approach. Personally I think leave is a mistake but everyone chose and they did.

I don't think I put people in a box and disregard what they say without giving it a fair shout and if I do I'm sorry, I guess I've got a bit used to seeing non arguments and nothing reasons that I sort of jump to that and should really take more time.

There fanatical strawberry float nuts on leave but I don't think anyone on he is really that much of a banana split to really think that life's being ruined and financial chaos is a price worth paying.

Hopefully it will work out and if it does I'll admit I was a pessimistic gooseberry fool, but right now I don't see it.

Karl wrote:

jawafour wrote:It’s difficult to call, Moggy... there are some hard-hitting, life-affecting issues at hand and so I can totally understand whilst folk get so passionate about it. Being a single bloke, I may be a little unaware of the fears that some people have about partners and family members although I try to demonstrate empathy. For my part, I certainly wouldn’t want to see anything happen that puts marriage and family relationships at risk. I am not knowledgable on this particular aspect; has the government suggested that such relationships could be impacted? I had thought that any existing marriages and families would not be affected by a break from the EU. Is the - quite understandable - fear arising from the thought that there may be changes?

For what it's worth, there have been stories in the news recently about the Home Office stockpiling deportation letters aimed at EU citizens, as well as making it difficult to apply for residency by adding bureaucracy and denying requests based on loopholes. It certainly seems to me like deportation is a legitimate concern for anyone who is (or is connected to) an EU citizen.

I’d imagine (and hope!) that those EU citizens will be allowed to stay. There’s no guarantees of that though, I’d be terrified if I wasn’t a British citizen or one of my loved ones wasn’t.

This will have long term effects on families as well though. Fall in love with a French, Polish or Spanish person in a few years? Then you better hope you earn enough money for them to be able to live with you here. Because that’s how our government judges love, on earnings.

Moggy wrote:This will have long term effects on families as well though. Fall in love with a French, Polish or Spanish person in a few years? Then you better hope you earn enough money for them to be able to live with you here. Because that’s how our government judges love, on earnings.

I understand Labour wants to scrap that earnings requirement as its been splitting up non-EU families over the past few years while having strawberry float all impact on the overall immigration figures. It's just cruel, especially for regions of the UK where average incomes are lower, and they don't even take into account the migrant's savings or their skills.

Moggy wrote:I’d imagine (and hope!) that those EU citizens will be allowed to stay. There’s no guarantees of that though, I’d be terrified if I wasn’t a British citizen or one of my loved ones wasn’t.

Cheers mate, I hope so. I don't talk about her much on here because I know people will rip the piss (this place ) but my partner is a sensitive person who worries a lot, and I know she's really quite stressed out about the possibility of getting sent 'home'.

It's especially sad because genuinely her whole family loves Britain - even as a kid she was taught English, watched the BBC, read British books, took holidays here - and now she's studied, got a decent job at a University, settled... and doesn't really feel welcome any more. That's what really gets me.

(I look forward to the next dozen posts being that "gay!" clip from Community. )

jawafour wrote:.

Jawa: I wasn't having a go at you by posting that by the way. I don't think less of you 'cos you voted Leave. You're a nice guy and I know you probably voted on the assumption that nothing really bad would happen and no-one really incompetent or xenophobic would be in charge. There's still a chance none of the stuff we're frightened of will happen, obviously I hope you're right and it turns out OK, it goes without saying but I'd happily post "I was wrong, sorry" on here over and over in big bold letters if it meant that all the families that are currently worried could stay together stress-free.

Karl wrote:Cheers mate, I hope so. I don't talk about her much on here because I know people will rip the piss (this place ) but my partner is a sensitive person who worries a lot, and I know she's really quite stressed out about the possibility of getting sent 'home'.

It's especially sad because genuinely her whole family loves Britain - even as a kid she was taught English, watched the BBC, read British books, took holidays here - and now she's studied, got a decent job at a University, settled... and doesn't really feel welcome any more. That's what really gets me.

I know that feel. It took over 5 months of a 6 month stay for me and my girlfriend to beat the Home Office in court when they tried to deny her entry to the UK at the airport on a whim (the reason being they simply didn't believe her that she was here to stay with me, even though she had a spotless travel record, had never broken any laws in her life, had enough money saved up for her stay, had studied here in the past, had been dating me for 3 years, and had intended to do the final year of her medical degree back home after her visit and had no intention to throw that away and overstay). Their decision was a complete shock, and they were going to fly her to France that night with nowhere to go (she's Malaysian, but had spent a few days on holiday in Europe before coming here). It was really gooseberry fool having that hanging over us for almost her entire visit, she felt very unwelcome here too. It was one of the happiest days ever when the Home Office banana splits were forced to withdraw the decision and cover all the legal costs. Hope it works out for you guys in the long run!

As a Norn Ironer, that experience definitely helped push me into feeling more Irish/European than British since.

All this talk of problems with foreign born significant others is making me even more terrified. I mean, me and the missus always just assumed that marriage would be good enough for her to remain in the UK or for me to move to France. Scary that it might not be.

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twitter.com/EngageTheRebels/status/912245501101211649

Grumpy David wrote:

twitter.com/EngageTheRebels/status/912245501101211649

Bloody Italians taking those kids jobs.

The guy at the very end has a point. I've spoken to so many kids who voted for the first time in the referendum from these backgrounds and virtually all of them seemed to vote out for reasons that had nothing to do with the EU because they simply misunderstood what the EU was and believed that everyone that was wrong in their lives was simply down to the big bad overseas politicians.

I'm sure i recognise one of those arseholes.

I'm not racist but...

Tafdolphin wrote:All this talk of problems with foreign born significant others is making me even more terrified. I mean, me and the missus always just assumed that marriage would be good enough for her to remain in the UK or for me to move to France. Scary that it might not be.

Does anyone genuinely think that if they married their SO from the EU in the next few years that they won't be allowed to live together?

I'm not saying this flippantly as I have a European girlfriend too but i think there's enough legitimate concerns around Brexit without fixating on improbable fears.

It is improbable but it certainly something to think about and plan for.